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Thread: Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

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    Re: Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

    I covered most of those points in my other post..However, I do know a hell of a lot about the region's history, so that certainly does not apply to me. Fighting back is not the issue..it is fighting when we do not know WHO TO AIM AT that is the major issue here. I look at it this way..perhaps we are dealing with a semantic issue here, and not a total difference in idealogy. We need to combat terrorism.

    I think I really need to raise an eyebrow at afghanistan being on the way towards a mend..well..I suppose you can say that, rather like you can say that a newborn baby is on the way towards his eventual death. I cant say that I think there is much hope of much progress in afghanistan. Not because we are incapable, but as I stated before, I DO know the history of that part of the world. I cant see us ending several hundred years of infighting, and aside from the fact that we really need to stop that opium, I can't say we should even try.
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    Re: Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Which means you were Army or Air Force. Marines and Sailors believe in promotions.
    I, Sir, am offended in the extreme. But yes, I was Air force. I was (had to look it up, I do not know marine MOS's at all) a 2791. Don't know if there is another designator that would need to be added. Army MOS was 98C..the Air force one was 208, but they changed their AFSC numbers after I got out, so no idea what the new one is.

    NO wait..missed the exact title in the list. I would be a 267x Russian.
    Last edited by opinion8tdwench; 09-10-10 at 09:42 PM.
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  3. #323
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    Re: Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by opinion8tdwench View Post
    I covered most of those points in my other post..However, I do know a hell of a lot about the region's history, so that certainly does not apply to me. Fighting back is not the issue..it is fighting when we do not know WHO TO AIM AT that is the major issue here. I look at it this way..perhaps we are dealing with a semantic issue here, and not a total difference in idealogy. We need to combat terrorism.

    I think I really need to raise an eyebrow at afghanistan being on the way towards a mend..well..I suppose you can say that, rather like you can say that a newborn baby is on the way towards his eventual death. I cant say that I think there is much hope of much progress in afghanistan. Not because we are incapable, but as I stated before, I DO know the history of that part of the world. I cant see us ending several hundred years of infighting, and aside from the fact that we really need to stop that opium, I can't say we should even try.
    Now thats an interesting answer. Were you for invading Afganistan at all?
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    Re: Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by opinion8tdwench View Post
    I covered most of those points in my other post..However, I do know a hell of a lot about the region's history, so that certainly does not apply to me. Fighting back is not the issue..it is fighting when we do not know WHO TO AIM AT that is the major issue here. I look at it this way..perhaps we are dealing with a semantic issue here, and not a total difference in idealogy. We need to combat terrorism.

    I think I really need to raise an eyebrow at afghanistan being on the way towards a mend..well..I suppose you can say that, rather like you can say that a newborn baby is on the way towards his eventual death. I cant say that I think there is much hope of much progress in afghanistan. Not because we are incapable, but as I stated before, I DO know the history of that part of the world. I cant see us ending several hundred years of infighting, and aside from the fact that we really need to stop that opium, I can't say we should even try.
    Well, consider how sure pundits were of the great "Iraqi Civil War." Or the pundits who declared that Iraqis voting will never happen. Or that Iraq is unwinnable. The military has been blasted by our own pathetic leaders yearly about impending failure and doom. In the mean time, Americans tuned in and repeated. Well, here we are without an Iraqi Civil War, voting Iraqis (even the Sunni), and a win. But the same voices will declare that all will eventually fail because they have not perfected Vermont in the desert after 7 whole years. Of course, they will dismiss the fact that even the French had to take almost a century to get past their internal slaughters and troubles of developing democracy and even voted in Napoleon along the way.

    People just don't have a clue what they are talking about because they don't understand the issues they make stupid statements. They imagine a bad guy coming to a table of surrender so we can throw ourselves a parade (or at least letting the bad guy go after a show of force as we did the Gulf War). And when that day doesn't come, it means failure. They fail to recognize the world they live in. They fail to understand how long Muslims in this region have struggled for democracy and social equality through European colonialism and Cold War. A couple hundred years of infighting has come about because of European nation designs. Without those unnatural borders, there would not be so much infighting. This is why I believe we may have screwed up by insisting that Iraq stay whole. Cramming tribes together and insisting that a handy dandy dictator or elite class control them has come to an end. But we are not the ones to end it. If they have to slaughter each other out as they did in Iraq to get to a point where they are sick of blood, then so be it. Culture is fate. Even Europe's Yugoslavia had to rip itself apart to correct the past. Of course, anti-Western venom didn't school the oppressed and impoverished in "Yugoslavia" like it has throughout the ME. And as long as we invest our civilization upon oil, we will have to focus on correcting issues that will eventually harm us. This means managing the corruption in the Afghani government by replacing the poppy fields with wheat fields. This means demanding that the Shia and others get a fair shake in Saudi Arabia. This means closely watching the thousands of Mosques and schools the "House of Saud" fund outside the ME. This means insisting that modernist voices in Egypt are protected. And so on. Oh and a nuclear Cold War in the Middle East? Can't happen.

    But when our enemy strikes they have to be met with greater military power. These military soft attacks with diplomatic assurance that they will rush in to save the day after the fighting begins does nothing. Our enemies must feel defeated, which means our attacks must be devistating.
    Last edited by MSgt; 09-10-10 at 10:11 PM.

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    Re: Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Now thats an interesting answer. Were you for invading Afganistan at all?
    I was against the original invasion of Afghanistan, but only on a deep principle I hold. I do believe that it was necessary, and would have fully accepted it except for one thing. When it became known that OBL was in Afghanistan, our govt ( and rightly so) demanded that he be turned over to us. The response back from them was that they wished to see our evidence against him before they would do anything. The Taliban were absolute religious fanatics, and not known for their fairness, their even mindedness, nor even their sanity, so it is doubtful, that had we given them absolute definitive proof of him planning the attack on America, plus a picture of him dancing naked with a naked man wearing a mohammed mask, they still probably would not have turned him over to us. HOWEVER, I was apalled at President Bush's flat out refusal to give them ANYTHING at all in an attempt to maybe get by without having to go to war with them. He cited security, and revealing intelligence sources, etc etc. As I just told Sgt, I was IN military intelligence, and I know how it works. It is NOT static. Intelligence is very fluid, and for the most part, as soon as you use one source, it is no longer viable. I can think of very few situations in which giving them a little bit of information would have done any kind of irrevocable harm to our intelligence, so I can only conclude, that Bush wasnt interested in a peaceful solution to the problem. He was simply being stubborn and obstinate and he WANTED to invade. As I said before, I do believe the outcome would ahve been the same, but his blatant refusal to even TRY for a solution that would not put our troops in harms way, rankled.
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    Re: Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by opinion8tdwench View Post
    I, Sir, am offended in the extreme. But yes, I was Air force. I was (had to look it up, I do not know marine MOS's at all) a 2791. Don't know if there is another designator that would need to be added. Army MOS was 98C..the Air force one was 208, but they changed their AFSC numbers after I got out, so no idea what the new one is.

    NO wait..missed the exact title in the list. I would be a 267x Russian.
    The MOS' across the branches have changed drastically over the last two decades. I came in a 2512, which turned into 0612, which incorporated the former 2514/0614 MOS. Now I'm an 0699.

    I never understood why the Army and Air Force congratulate the promoted and insist on calling them the same rank throughout their careers.
    Last edited by MSgt; 09-10-10 at 10:08 PM.

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  7. #327
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    Re: Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Well, consider how sure pundits were of the great "Iraqi Civil War." Or the pundits who declared that Iraqis voting will never happen. Or that Iraq is unwinnable. The military has been blasted by our own pathetic leaders yearly about impending failure and doom. In the mean time, Americans tuned in and repeated. Well, here we are without an Iraqi Civil War, voting Iraqis (even the Sunni), and a win. But the same voices will declare that all will eventually fail because they have not perfected Vermont in the desert after 7 whole years. Of course, they will dismiss the fact that even the French had to take almost a century to get past their internal slaughters and troubles of developing democracy and even voted in Napoleon along the way.

    People just don't have a clue what they are talking about because they don't understand the issues they make stupid statements. They imagine a bad guy coming to a table of surrender so we can throw ourselves a parade (or at least letting the bad guy go after a show of force as we did the Gulf War). And when that day doesn't come, it means failure. They fail to recognize the world they live in. They fail to understand how long Muslims in this region have struggled for democracy and social equality through European colonialism and Cold War. A couple hundred years of infighting has come about because of European nation designs. Without those unnatural borders, there would not be so much infighting. This is why I believe we may have screwed up by insisting that Iraq stay whole. Cramming tribes together and insisting that a handy dandy dictator or elite class control them has come to an end. Even Europe's Yugoslavia had to rip itself apart to correct the past. Of course, anti-Western venom didn't school the oppressed and impoverished in "Yugoslavia" like it has throughout the ME.
    Oh, I firmly believe that once we had gone in there, we truly should have pushed for deunification (okay, its not a word, But I like it anyway). These people will never be able to live together in peace. Not for long anyway. Or at least I dont see it happening. I try not to use definitives often, but I really just cant imagine it. There is too much bad blood..And no Romeo and Juliet around to show them the error of their feud. And I don't see the existing government sticking around as it is for very long. For the citizens of that part of the world, religion is not part of their lives..it is their lives. And they work best under a theocracy. It can be a democratic theorcracy, but they will always turn to their religious leaders, and it is only natural that their religious leaders also be their governmental leaders.
    If you can't bite, don't growl.

  8. #328
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    Re: Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It shouldn't exist at all. Are you suggesting people can't be adults, and that heterosexual males will have sex willingly with homosexual males?
    That's exactly what I'm saying. Anyone that's spent any amount of time in the service, especially Marine, or Army combat arms units, know what I'm talking about.

    We're dealing with kids, here. The average age of your garden variety light infantry unit is 22 y/o. Take a group of 30 males, aged 18-25; in your opinion, would the maturity level of that group be above, or below average?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #329
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    Re: Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The MOS' across the branches have changed drastically over the last two decades. I came in a 2512, which turned into 0612, which incorporated the former 2514/0614 MOS.

    I never understood why the Army and Air Force congratulate the promoted and insist on calling them the same rank throughout their careers.
    Heh..The main thing most care about is the increase in base pay and BAQ and BAS anyway. Besides..it takes too long to spit out a full rank. People could be dying behind you while you try to say Master gunnery sgt. If you only have to say sarge, maybe only one will get hit.
    If you can't bite, don't growl.

  10. #330
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    Re: Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

    Ap, if you truly think that little of these soldiers, I see very little hope in you ever changing your mind. People can and do control themselves when it is necessary. Obviously, since gay men and women have been serving quietly for centuries, the problematic incidents have been pretty low. So your low opinion of our soldiers seems incorrect.
    If you can't bite, don't growl.

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