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Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

Apocalypse said:
Edit: Funny how my comments in this thread always appear in the top of a new page.
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Just think of it as an indication your comments are tops!

You served in the IDF, no? Was it after gays where allowed to serve?
 
winston53660 said:
Society did this to you huh :lamo:lamo:lamo
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Oh, another gay with his feelings hurt.

It's really an easy concept. Why was women's emancipation and black equality such a struggle? Was it perhaps because society largely developed an idea of what our civilization is suuposed to look like over a period of time? Of course. Why then is it so hard to acccept that since society has frowned upon homosexuality since our beginning, that the military has a magic wand that the society does not?
 
MSgt said:
Unfortunately, you are proving otherwise. You see, when a person accuses the military of being unproffessional and that "it makes sense," he does maintain a streak of hatred towards it.
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Whatever. I'm angry because I expect better of you guys, not because I hate the military.

MSgt said:
You have been given your answers over and over despite asking the same boringly laced questions. Like them or not there they are. The military is professional enough to follow the policy set by civilians. DADT is of White House origin. Eventually, gays will serve openly. The prejudice of an American society is reflected within our military. You can beat on the military over andover fromthe safetly of your keyboard, but in the end, the frustration you see in the mirror comes from our society...not the military aspect of it.
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Can you just admit that it's a professionalism issue, without all the secondary and tertiary justifications?
 
Redress said:
I would tend to think it is unlikely that this is happening. First off the NCO corps is not some unified entity, and secondly, my experience is that most NCO's don't have patients with anything disrupting getting the job done, and that would include harassment of people.
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That's exactly right. Therein lies part of the problem. Gays, serving in a combat unit, will create disruptions in getting the job done. It's inevitable.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Not pointing to any post in particular at the moment, but the namecalling ends now.
 
Apocalypse said:
As I said, the first Lebanon war was stretching after 93, and until 2000.
It could also be pointed out that besides the second Intifada, the second Lebanon war and operation Cast Lead in Gaza, the IDF is always involved in warfare operations.

Edit: Funny how my comments in this thread always appear in the top of a new page.
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Okay, so in other words (if I may summarize) apdst didn't know what the hell he was talking about?
 
reefedjib said:
I served. I saw what I saw.
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The prejudice against gays goes throughout the ranks. It's a prejudice that society has legitimized for a very long time and is enforced through a long standing policy. To suggest that gays are getting their feelings hurt because of senrio non-commissioned officers is not only dishonest, but stupid.
 
apdst said:
That's exactly right. Therein lies part of the problem. Gays, serving in a combat unit, will create disruptions in getting the job done. It's inevitable.
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I don't see it, especially not after the first few months. Even 20 years ago, maybe, but the younger generation(ie not us) are much more accepting of gays than your or my generation(assuming they are not the same generation, no idea how old you are, though our service did overlap).
 
apdst said:
Sounds like you served with some sub-standard NCO's.
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Perhaps. They were very enthusiastic with non-judicial, non-Article 15, off-the-books motivational in-house punishment. The big ****ing E-5 Samoan was a big problem. He used to jump us and put us in sleeper holds on the line. They gang-raped a squad mate with a broom.
 
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apdst said:
What do you think it is? Is it prejudice and a lack of professionalism?
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That is exactly what I think it is.

apdst said:
If so, what do you propose we do to change that?
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That gays be permitted to serve openly, and that the homophobes get told to **** off if they can't deal with it, because we're the United States military, and we're the best in the world goddammit, and if we can't manage something that other militaries have managed it's because they're better than we are.

Aside from that Caine had a good point, so maybe you maintain a ban on sex with collegues -- for all genders and orientations.
 
MSgt said:
The prejudice against gays goes throughout the ranks. It's a prejudice that society has legitimized for a very long time and is enforced through a long standing policy. To suggest that gays are getting their feelings hurt because of senrio non-commissioned officers is not only dishonest, but stupid.
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The prejudice is also very much reduced from what it has been. It is much much less of a problem than it has been even 10 years ago, let alone from when I served.
 
Redress said:
I don't see it, especially not after the first few months. Even 20 years ago, maybe, but the younger generation(ie not us) are much more accepting of gays than your or my generation(assuming they are not the same generation, no idea how old you are, though our service did overlap).
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Females have been in the ranks for over 20 years and NCO's in co-ed units are still dealing with sexual harassment, rapes and other improper conduct, rather than training their troops and getting the job done.
 
reefedjib said:
Perhaps. They were very enthusiastic with non-judicial, non-Article 15, off-the-books motivational in-house punishment. The big ****ing E-5 Samoan was a big problem. He used to jump us and put us in sleeper holds on the line. They gang-raped a squad mate with a broom.
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Punishment of gays?
 
Redress said:
Just think of it as an indication your comments are tops!

You served in the IDF, no? Was it after gays where allowed to serve?
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Of course, I'm in my 20's.
 
apdst said:
Females have been in the ranks for over 20 years and NCO's in co-ed units are still dealing with sexual harassment, rapes and other improper conduct, rather than training their troops and getting the job done.
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To an extent yes, but it is not a large problem in the military. Unit cohesion is still strong. We have had blacks serving in mixed units for much longer than that, and yet there are still racial issues at times. It's just not that bad.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I'm asking Apoc for his interpretation of your comments.

He can read, and my hand isn't up his butt.
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Obviously, he misunderstood what I said, too.

Let me say it again, the IDF hasn't been in a pitched battle, since the gay ban was lifted in 1993. Certainly nothing like the '67 war, The Yom Kippur War, or the War in Lebanon during the 80's.
 
Apocalypse said:
Of course, I'm in my 20's.
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Do you think the US should allow gays to serve openly, and do you think it will effect unit cohesion and morale for us here? You are kinda a voice of experience.

Also....why did I think you where much older?
 
Redress said:
To an extent yes, but it is not a large problem in the military. Unit cohesion is still strong. We have had blacks serving in mixed units for much longer than that, and yet there are still racial issues at times. It's just not that bad.
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There's enough concern over the issue, that it's one of the reasons that females aren't allowed to serve in combat arms units.
 
apdst said:
There's enough concern over the issue, that it's one of the reasons that females aren't allowed to serve in combat arms units.
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I again do not believe that this is the case, nor have you documented the claim.
 
apdst said:
Obviously, he misunderstood what I said, too.

Let me say it again, the IDF hasn't been in a pitched battle, since the gay ban was lifted in 1993. Certainly nothing like the '67 war, The Yom Kippur War, or the War in Lebanon during the 80's.
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I agree that a massive war such as the 67' or the 73' wars were not seen in the area, but the first Lebanon war (that started in the early 80's) has ended 7 years after the ban was lifted, and it was the most prolonged war in Israel's history, way more than the six days of the six-day war, for example.
 
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