• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

This is the action of dumbass minister who probably has 20 people sitting in his pews and is trying to generate pub. This is far better left undone, and it does potentially create problems for our military and police.

That said, he absolutely has the right to do this.

And I don't recall the outcry from the Islamic community over the outrageous actions of a SIGNIFICANT percentage of Muslims. They barely bat an eye.
 
Last edited:
spud_meister said:
The pastor is as much a dickhead as the people that do it in the ME,
Click to expand...

I do not think that pastor would try to kill you or riot if you burned a bible in front of him. Those people in the middle east however would if you burned a koran in front of them regardless if you did while they were burning bibles and American flags.

there is no way he could even try and claim the moral high ground you seem to be putting him on.
Click to expand...

I never claimed he has the moral high ground. I am just pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of those bitching about korans being burned.
 
jamesrage said:
I never claimed he has the moral high ground. I am just pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of those bitching about korans being burned.
Click to expand...

Its not hypocrisy if you think they are both wrong and can see beyond the most generalized thinking ive ever seen. "Us vs. Them" no its not really that simple.
 
Andalublue said:
Can or should anything be done to stop this calculated attempt to stir up trouble?
Click to expand...

No, there is nothing you can do to stop it. It's going to happen, they are free to do so, you're gonna have to accept that.

Andalublue said:
Is this like calling 'fire!' in a packed theatre?
Click to expand...

No, yelling fire in a packed theatre creates a panic and directly leads to the endangerment of the lives of others. Burning a book does not.

Andalublue said:
Or is free speech just too precious?
Click to expand...

All our rights and liberties are deeply precious and should be defended to their fullest extent.
 
Andalublue said:
Pointing and laughing won't be what the troops in Afghanistan are doing when angry mobs take to the street.

Of course, those angry mobs ought to appreciate the value of free speech, but they don't because they have their own version of Pastor Terry Jones organising International Burn An American Flag Days for many years now.

This is a bit like sticking your fingers in a light socket and expecting the electricity to respect the fact that you can do what the hell you like in your own home.
Click to expand...

So we shouldn't exercise our rights because other people will get pissed off at us for doing so even when they themselves have similar demonstrations pointed against us? Is that what you're saying? HA, **** those guys. They need to learn that if they're gonna dish it, they had best be prepared to take it.
 
Gardener said:
Yep, some do.

and we should show our disgust by being just like them!
Click to expand...

We should give them the middle finger by doing what they do and remind them that respect is a two way street. Condemning a pastor for doing what they basically do only reinforces the idea that is it okay for muslims in the middle east to not tolerate other religions while demanding everyone respect theirs.
 
Degreez said:
So to protest intolerance, you suggest displaying intolerance as the best route?
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone says that. What people are saying is that this intollerance is well within the rights and liberties of the pastor and he must be allowed to express himself in this manner. Other people point out that the other side is mad at us for allowing it. But we can't do anything about it, and so what? Those guys do the same thing to us, them being pissed at us isn't valid reason to forcibly suppress the pastor's right to free speech and religion. That's just the way it is.
 
Degreez said:
So to protest intolerance, you suggest displaying intolerance as the best route?
Click to expand...

Ikari said:
I don't think anyone says that. What people are saying is that this intollerance is well within the rights and liberties of the pastor and he must be allowed to express himself in this manner. Other people point out that the other side is mad at us for allowing it. But we can't do anything about it, and so what? Those guys do the same thing to us, them being pissed at us isn't valid reason to forcibly suppress the pastor's right to free speech and religion. That's just the way it is.
Click to expand...

Yep, I think you are saying exactly what Degreez pointed out. You're saying, "You burn our flags and Bible and we don't like it, so we burn your Koran and you won't like it. Difference is, we've got the right to burn your Koran, because we live in a democracy."
 
Andalublue said:
Yep, I think you are saying exactly what Degreez pointed out. You're saying, "You burn our flags and Bible and we don't like it, so we burn your Koran and you won't like it. Difference is, we've got the right to burn your Koran, because we live in a democracy."
Click to expand...

Incorrect. Nice try at spin though. It's not saying that since you've burned bibles, we're going to burn Korans. It's not a response of that manner. While it is intolerant of the pastor to do, he is free to do is as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. Sure it would be best to not go this route, but the route is not barred from travel. He can choose it. We can't stop him, and not because some jerks burned some bibles in another country, but because he is within his rights to act in this manner. That is why we can't do anything about it. The point about them being mad at us for this loon of a preacher burning the Koran while they have burned the Bible is not excusing our act of allowing this guy to burn the Koran. That's stupid. What is is saying is that they have no legitimate basis upon which to complain to us about it.

That's what is being said, not your silly little spin. But rather that while the otherside may bitch to us about it, they don't have a leg to stand on. This guy is doing what he's doing, he's within his rights to do so; we can't stop him. If other people want to get upset over it, they are free to do so. But they have no valid point since they too engage in similar behavior.
 
Ikari said:
Incorrect. Nice try at spin though. It's not saying that since you've burned bibles, we're going to burn Korans. It's not a response of that manner. While it is intolerant of the pastor to do, he is free to do is as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. Sure it would be best to not go this route, but the route is not barred from travel. He can choose it. We can't stop him, and not because some jerks burned some bibles in another country, but because he is within his rights to act in this manner. That is why we can't do anything about it. The point about them being mad at us for this loon of a preacher burning the Koran while they have burned the Bible is not excusing our act of allowing this guy to burn the Koran. That's stupid. What is is saying is that they have no legitimate basis upon which to complain to us about it.

That's what is being said, not your silly little spin. But rather that while the otherside may bitch to us about it, they don't have a leg to stand on. This guy is doing what he's doing, he's within his rights to do so; we can't stop him. If other people want to get upset over it, they are free to do so. But they have no valid point since they too engage in similar behavior.
Click to expand...

Then you have no cause to bitch about them burning the American flag, yet many of your cohorts have done that today, repeatedly. My position is the opposite. Book burning leads to violence and death, wherever it occurs. It is the 'calling fire in a crowded theatre' argument in the free speech debate. I guess it depends on where you draw the line on that constitutional question.

I'd like to see secular and religious leaders in the Islamic world calling time on such inflammatory behaviour. Hell, I'd like everyone who does it, or has the power to control it, to stop it. Call it a brake on free speech if you wish, I call it not conceding to your opponent the moral high-ground and the morale boost that goes with it. You can bet that OBL is chuckling his nuts off and sending up a prayer of thanks for Pastor Jones.
 
Morally speaking, I think everyone acts like pathetic children when it comes to political or religious symbols. Ideally, everyone should realize its only a book or a flag and move on with their lives. Unfortunately, we don' live in a perfect world. This pastor's actions is going to have consequences, and thanks to our current wars, American lives are going to be put in in danger. However, he still has the full legal right to burn whatever book he pleases. It just pisses me off that he is willing to set off a political powder keg just so he can go out of the way show to the world what an intolerant asshole he is. It also pisses me off that a bunch of people are going to potentially get violent over a bunch of words on a page. Finally, it pisses me off that a few morons on both sides can screw it up for everyone else.
 
Andalublue said:
Then you have no cause to bitch about them burning the American flag, yet many of your cohorts have done that today, repeatedly. My position is the opposite. Book burning leads to violence and death, wherever it occurs. It is the 'calling fire in a crowded theatre' argument in the free speech debate. I guess it depends on where you draw the line on that constitutional question.
Click to expand...

Well I can bitch about whatever I want; I haven't burned anything. But in reality, I don't care if they burn the American flag. It's their country and their customs and they're welcome to them. Hell I will sell them American flags by the crate load. But I can't tell them "no" or do anything to stop it. Book burning is book burning though, it's a pointless and useless tactic; that's it. It's not going to directly endanger lives, there are other choices in between "book burning" and "endangering lives" for it to happen. It's not the same as crying fire in a crowded theater; because that act does directly endanger the lives of others. Book burning does not...less you're also burning people in the fire...but that's something completely different and usually involves witches.

Andalublue said:
I'd like to see secular and religious leaders in the Islamic world calling time on such inflammatory behavior. Hell, I'd like everyone who does it, or has the power to control it, to stop it. Call it a brake on free speech if you wish, I call it not conceding to your opponent the moral high-ground and the morale boost that goes with it. You can bet that OBL is chuckling his nuts off and sending up a prayer of thanks for Pastor Jones.
Click to expand...

It would be great if no one acted offensively. But that ain't ever gonna happen, people are people. We're not conceding anything though. We would concede if we allowed this pressure against the use of our rights to cause us to work against our rights and liberties. That's when we lose, that's when OBL gets to laugh his nuts off. When we start trading in our freedom for safety or for some dumbass, retarded, PC sort of thing. So long as we stand strong by our principles of freedom and liberty; we come out on top.
 
Ikari said:
Well I can bitch about whatever I want; I haven't burned anything. But in reality, I don't care if they burn the American flag. It's their country and their customs and they're welcome to them. Hell I will sell them American flags by the crate load. But I can't tell them "no" or do anything to stop it. Book burning is book burning though, it's a pointless and useless tactic; that's it. It's not going to directly endanger lives, there are other choices in between "book burning" and "endangering lives" for it to happen. It's not the same as crying fire in a crowded theater; because that act does directly endanger the lives of others. Book burning does not...less you're also burning people in the fire...but that's something completely different and usually involves witches.



It would be great if no one acted offensively. But that ain't ever gonna happen, people are people. We're not conceding anything though. We would concede if we allowed this pressure against the use of our rights to cause us to work against our rights and liberties. That's when we lose, that's when OBL gets to laugh his nuts off. When we start trading in our freedom for safety or for some dumbass, retarded, PC sort of thing. So long as we stand strong by our principles of freedom and liberty; we come out on top.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, when we act just like our enemies we're kinda conceding that whole moral high ground we cling to. So why not just drop the pretense? **** it. "We're America. We're bigger and stronger, we can do what we want and you muslims can't do **** about it."
 
Deuce said:
On the other hand, when we act just like our enemies we're kinda conceding that whole moral high ground we cling to. So why not just drop the pretense? **** it. "We're America. We're bigger and stronger, we can do what we want and you muslims can't do **** about it."
Click to expand...

So, your suggestion is what? Sending in the police to stop it? 'Coz it would have to be if you're arguing with Ikari on this point.

That's a fantastic way to cherish the liberties we hold dear.
 
Deuce said:
On the other hand, when we act just like our enemies we're kinda conceding that whole moral high ground we cling to. So why not just drop the pretense? **** it. "We're America. We're bigger and stronger, we can do what we want and you muslims can't do **** about it."
Click to expand...

Nobody can do **** about it. Should I be ruled by the ideals and customs of other people? Should Afghanistan have some say in what I'm able to do? Should the UK be able to write our laws? People can run their mouths as much as they want, but America is a sovereign nation; we do what we want to do, it's our god damned government and we're the ones who have to live with it. Why should they be able to do anything about it? Book burning doesn't infringe upon other people's rights, so it's not illegal. Let's not make this into something more than what it is. And me saying that someone has the right to do so doesn't infringe upon other people's rights either. And it's not an endorsement of the act either, just a statement. If you want to condemn the whole of America by the actions of one crazy ass preacher, have at it. But he doesn't represent the whole, he's just one guy. How many Americans are burning Korans? Many of us have spoken out against it, said it's stupid and pointless and will cause more problems than solve. But we can't physically stop it. That's where we're at. It seems that some of you want us to physically stop it. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how. We'd have to violate our own culture, our own ideals, our own principles to do so.
 
Gardener said:
The article mentioned the church having only 50 members. Looks like they are having a membership drive to me.
Click to expand...

I blame the media for all the hoop-la over this. This cult has every right to burn the Koran, but that doesn't mean we have to make a news story out of it. (we should stick to message boards and blogs for that :)
Does he have a right to be a jerk? Sure. Is it the right thing to do? I don't think so, any more than I think it's right to build a mosque at ground zero. Both are provacative.
 
Degreez said:
That makes no sense and does not follow any logic. It is not about what the Muslims want done to them. The Pastor is a Christian, and as a Christian, he should "do to others as he would have them to do him". Or does the Pastor only follow some of Jesus' teachings?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure but I think this "Christian" is the same nut that disrupts military funerals. Don't lump his 50 member congregation in with good Christians. I think he just wants to make the news. He is a very small fringe much like Islamic Radicals are to Islam.
 
Barbbtx said:
I'm not sure but I think this "Christian" is the same nut that disrupts military funerals. Don't lump his 50 member congregation in with good Christians. I think he just wants to make the news. He is a very small fringe much like Islamic Radicals are to Islam.
Click to expand...


If only I had the energy to keep refuting this... I'll simply state that radical Islam is the problem... oh and these are not the droids you are looking for. /waves hand

Islam is Islam too few westerners understand thistoo few indeed.
 
Ikari said:
Nobody can do **** about it. Should I be ruled by the ideals and customs of other people? Should Afghanistan have some say in what I'm able to do? Should the UK be able to write our laws? People can run their mouths as much as they want, but America is a sovereign nation; we do what we want to do, it's our god damned government and we're the ones who have to live with it. Why should they be able to do anything about it? Book burning doesn't infringe upon other people's rights, so it's not illegal. Let's not make this into something more than what it is. And me saying that someone has the right to do so doesn't infringe upon other people's rights either. And it's not an endorsement of the act either, just a statement. If you want to condemn the whole of America by the actions of one crazy ass preacher, have at it. But he doesn't represent the whole, he's just one guy. How many Americans are burning Korans? Many of us have spoken out against it, said it's stupid and pointless and will cause more problems than solve. But we can't physically stop it. That's where we're at. It seems that some of you want us to physically stop it. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how. We'd have to violate our own culture, our own ideals, our own principles to do so.
Click to expand...

I'm saying we shouldn't try to claim the moral high ground over middle eastern countries or muslims if we're behaving the same way. Not many Muslims burn bibles. Many Muslims have spoken out against burning bibles.
 
Deuce said:
I'm saying we shouldn't try to claim the moral high ground over middle eastern countries or muslims if we're behaving the same way. Not many Muslims burn bibles. Many Muslims have spoken out against burning bibles.
Click to expand...

"We" aren't. Thiry buttwipes in Florida are.

Contrast that with the governmental policies in numerous ME countries.
 
Harshaw said:
"We" aren't. Thiry buttwipes in Florida are.

Contrast that with the governmental policies in numerous ME countries.
Click to expand...

So it's ok to generalize about 1.4 billion muslims but not 300 million Americans. Ok.
 
Deuce said:
So it's ok to generalize about 1.4 billion muslims but not 300 million Americans. Ok.
Click to expand...

Who's doing that? I'm not. But you appear to be.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom