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Thread: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Pointing and laughing won't be what the troops in Afghanistan are doing when angry mobs take to the street.

    Of course, those angry mobs ought to appreciate the value of free speech, but they don't because they have their own version of Pastor Terry Jones organising International Burn An American Flag Days for many years now.

    This is a bit like sticking your fingers in a light socket and expecting the electricity to respect the fact that you can do what the hell you like in your own home.
    So we shouldn't exercise our rights because other people will get pissed off at us for doing so even when they themselves have similar demonstrations pointed against us? Is that what you're saying? HA, **** those guys. They need to learn that if they're gonna dish it, they had best be prepared to take it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Yep, some do.

    and we should show our disgust by being just like them!
    We should give them the middle finger by doing what they do and remind them that respect is a two way street. Condemning a pastor for doing what they basically do only reinforces the idea that is it okay for muslims in the middle east to not tolerate other religions while demanding everyone respect theirs.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    So to protest intolerance, you suggest displaying intolerance as the best route?
    I don't think anyone says that. What people are saying is that this intollerance is well within the rights and liberties of the pastor and he must be allowed to express himself in this manner. Other people point out that the other side is mad at us for allowing it. But we can't do anything about it, and so what? Those guys do the same thing to us, them being pissed at us isn't valid reason to forcibly suppress the pastor's right to free speech and religion. That's just the way it is.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post

    So to protest intolerance, you suggest displaying intolerance as the best route?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I don't think anyone says that. What people are saying is that this intollerance is well within the rights and liberties of the pastor and he must be allowed to express himself in this manner. Other people point out that the other side is mad at us for allowing it. But we can't do anything about it, and so what? Those guys do the same thing to us, them being pissed at us isn't valid reason to forcibly suppress the pastor's right to free speech and religion. That's just the way it is.
    Yep, I think you are saying exactly what Degreez pointed out. You're saying, "You burn our flags and Bible and we don't like it, so we burn your Koran and you won't like it. Difference is, we've got the right to burn your Koran, because we live in a democracy."
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I wouldn't call that outcry. What action has gone along with it? None.

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Yep, I think you are saying exactly what Degreez pointed out. You're saying, "You burn our flags and Bible and we don't like it, so we burn your Koran and you won't like it. Difference is, we've got the right to burn your Koran, because we live in a democracy."
    Incorrect. Nice try at spin though. It's not saying that since you've burned bibles, we're going to burn Korans. It's not a response of that manner. While it is intolerant of the pastor to do, he is free to do is as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. Sure it would be best to not go this route, but the route is not barred from travel. He can choose it. We can't stop him, and not because some jerks burned some bibles in another country, but because he is within his rights to act in this manner. That is why we can't do anything about it. The point about them being mad at us for this loon of a preacher burning the Koran while they have burned the Bible is not excusing our act of allowing this guy to burn the Koran. That's stupid. What is is saying is that they have no legitimate basis upon which to complain to us about it.

    That's what is being said, not your silly little spin. But rather that while the otherside may bitch to us about it, they don't have a leg to stand on. This guy is doing what he's doing, he's within his rights to do so; we can't stop him. If other people want to get upset over it, they are free to do so. But they have no valid point since they too engage in similar behavior.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Incorrect. Nice try at spin though. It's not saying that since you've burned bibles, we're going to burn Korans. It's not a response of that manner. While it is intolerant of the pastor to do, he is free to do is as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. Sure it would be best to not go this route, but the route is not barred from travel. He can choose it. We can't stop him, and not because some jerks burned some bibles in another country, but because he is within his rights to act in this manner. That is why we can't do anything about it. The point about them being mad at us for this loon of a preacher burning the Koran while they have burned the Bible is not excusing our act of allowing this guy to burn the Koran. That's stupid. What is is saying is that they have no legitimate basis upon which to complain to us about it.

    That's what is being said, not your silly little spin. But rather that while the otherside may bitch to us about it, they don't have a leg to stand on. This guy is doing what he's doing, he's within his rights to do so; we can't stop him. If other people want to get upset over it, they are free to do so. But they have no valid point since they too engage in similar behavior.
    Then you have no cause to bitch about them burning the American flag, yet many of your cohorts have done that today, repeatedly. My position is the opposite. Book burning leads to violence and death, wherever it occurs. It is the 'calling fire in a crowded theatre' argument in the free speech debate. I guess it depends on where you draw the line on that constitutional question.

    I'd like to see secular and religious leaders in the Islamic world calling time on such inflammatory behaviour. Hell, I'd like everyone who does it, or has the power to control it, to stop it. Call it a brake on free speech if you wish, I call it not conceding to your opponent the moral high-ground and the morale boost that goes with it. You can bet that OBL is chuckling his nuts off and sending up a prayer of thanks for Pastor Jones.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Morally speaking, I think everyone acts like pathetic children when it comes to political or religious symbols. Ideally, everyone should realize its only a book or a flag and move on with their lives. Unfortunately, we don' live in a perfect world. This pastor's actions is going to have consequences, and thanks to our current wars, American lives are going to be put in in danger. However, he still has the full legal right to burn whatever book he pleases. It just pisses me off that he is willing to set off a political powder keg just so he can go out of the way show to the world what an intolerant asshole he is. It also pisses me off that a bunch of people are going to potentially get violent over a bunch of words on a page. Finally, it pisses me off that a few morons on both sides can screw it up for everyone else.

  9. #39
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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Then you have no cause to bitch about them burning the American flag, yet many of your cohorts have done that today, repeatedly. My position is the opposite. Book burning leads to violence and death, wherever it occurs. It is the 'calling fire in a crowded theatre' argument in the free speech debate. I guess it depends on where you draw the line on that constitutional question.
    Well I can bitch about whatever I want; I haven't burned anything. But in reality, I don't care if they burn the American flag. It's their country and their customs and they're welcome to them. Hell I will sell them American flags by the crate load. But I can't tell them "no" or do anything to stop it. Book burning is book burning though, it's a pointless and useless tactic; that's it. It's not going to directly endanger lives, there are other choices in between "book burning" and "endangering lives" for it to happen. It's not the same as crying fire in a crowded theater; because that act does directly endanger the lives of others. Book burning does not...less you're also burning people in the fire...but that's something completely different and usually involves witches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I'd like to see secular and religious leaders in the Islamic world calling time on such inflammatory behavior. Hell, I'd like everyone who does it, or has the power to control it, to stop it. Call it a brake on free speech if you wish, I call it not conceding to your opponent the moral high-ground and the morale boost that goes with it. You can bet that OBL is chuckling his nuts off and sending up a prayer of thanks for Pastor Jones.
    It would be great if no one acted offensively. But that ain't ever gonna happen, people are people. We're not conceding anything though. We would concede if we allowed this pressure against the use of our rights to cause us to work against our rights and liberties. That's when we lose, that's when OBL gets to laugh his nuts off. When we start trading in our freedom for safety or for some dumbass, retarded, PC sort of thing. So long as we stand strong by our principles of freedom and liberty; we come out on top.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #40
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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well I can bitch about whatever I want; I haven't burned anything. But in reality, I don't care if they burn the American flag. It's their country and their customs and they're welcome to them. Hell I will sell them American flags by the crate load. But I can't tell them "no" or do anything to stop it. Book burning is book burning though, it's a pointless and useless tactic; that's it. It's not going to directly endanger lives, there are other choices in between "book burning" and "endangering lives" for it to happen. It's not the same as crying fire in a crowded theater; because that act does directly endanger the lives of others. Book burning does not...less you're also burning people in the fire...but that's something completely different and usually involves witches.



    It would be great if no one acted offensively. But that ain't ever gonna happen, people are people. We're not conceding anything though. We would concede if we allowed this pressure against the use of our rights to cause us to work against our rights and liberties. That's when we lose, that's when OBL gets to laugh his nuts off. When we start trading in our freedom for safety or for some dumbass, retarded, PC sort of thing. So long as we stand strong by our principles of freedom and liberty; we come out on top.
    On the other hand, when we act just like our enemies we're kinda conceding that whole moral high ground we cling to. So why not just drop the pretense? **** it. "We're America. We're bigger and stronger, we can do what we want and you muslims can't do **** about it."
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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