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Thread: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    The *Islamic center* is the problem. . . I think everyone's clear that this isn't *just* a mosque.
    Speak for yourself, please. I have zero problems with this mosque being built.

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by opinion8tdwench View Post
    It is not that they are not applicable to us anymore, it is that the way we deal with our problems, etc has changed. The Bible speaks of stoning adulterers, as does the Koran. Most modern people do not feel this is an appropriate punishment. I cant help but think that even in the Sharia ruled countries where it is still done, a good portion of the citizens are not particularly fond of the practice. What needs to be looked at, instead of taking the stoning literally, is that adultery is a BAD thing. Both sides can agree with this. Honoring our vows, and being true, honest and faithful are concepts both Muslims and Christians can get behind. See what I mean? The principles have changed, but more modern thinking has us dealing with these things in different ways. The concepts..the morality..all these things are still valid. It is the way we approach them that has changed.
    The Bible has woman walking always behind her man, and being obedient to him in every way. Modern (well, for the most part) thinking sees the two as helpmates (which is also mentioned in the bible) and supporting each other, with neither being the lord and master. One can show respect without being subservient. In the days when these holy books were written, it was probably kinda important that a woman do as she was told by her man, not because she was unable to think for herself, but because she had never been taught anything, and also because with the infancy death rate being as it was, her presence at the home pumping out babies was kinda essential to the survival of the species. Horrible, yes..but true for the time. We are moving past that now, and appreciating that a woman can contribute things besides being a baby factory. Again..the concept of respecting your mate is still there..but treated in a different way.
    thanks for the clarification. i think i see your point... you are speaking from the point of view that the books were written by men and men are fallible so they're views can be challenged, refuted, and discarded over time like scientic theories or fashion statements. But when God says that the shariah is universal till the end of time it means it is applicaBle and even the best option for every age. Modern society now has AIDS which is new from sexual pervsions, its modern isnt' it?...Chastity is an "old and backwards" view, but sexual freedom is modern..is this better? i mean, they say having sexual partners and what not is good for our character and buildling of relationships...but is that true? something liek 60% of marriages become divorce...

    I go to school being told we live in a society of progress. Do we? My grandma from Iran got married at the age of 13 and she is the brightest woman i know...in many countries, kids at the age of 10 are working at home, helping their mom, their dad at teh shops...In America, a large percentage of kids are addicted to internet pornography and TV. In california, in the 1800's, the legal age of consent was 14. in hawaii in 2001 it was 10... is this progression? are we truly moving forward? we know so much about these things and disregard it.. with that in mind, i like to turn the table and ask you, are we really progressing? is this modern era truly better?

    dont get me wrong, many innovations have benefited humanity like i said..such as medicine, technology...the fact i can talk to my family back home over seas, or that we can cure many deadly diseases..

    i iguess my point in all is that just cuz its modern, doesn't mean its better. you claim that the values of religion are good..(dont murder, steal, cheat etc) thats true, in Islam, God calls these basic values "Fitra" meaning "natural inclination", but that religion or "Deen" meanign, way of life, is more to it that just knowing that killing is wrong...Religion should be a way of life..a life of guidance..
    Last edited by GodsWrath; 09-09-10 at 08:31 PM.

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Let me ask you a question. Is murder wrong because God says it is wrong, or because God KNOWS it is wrong? Meaning..it is simply wrong and God knows this as a fact, or did it become wrong because God stated it?
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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by GodsWrath View Post
    Modern society now has AIDS which is new from sexual pervsions, its modern isnt' it?
    And all part of God's creation. Didn't he make every living thing?

    I understand your point about saying that not everything modern and progressive is necessarily an improvement, however exactly the same thing can be said about everything that is traditional and conservative. As a follower of the teachings of the Lord Buddha, I would suggest that there is a middle way that, using the intellect and insight that we are all capable of, you can come to an understanding and judgement on the aspects of life and behaviour that promote a healthy and happy mind and a fulfilling life. The reason Buddhism does not have the same body of dogma as many other philosophies is because every human is both entirely different and yet a part of the same creation. It's up to you to decide your own morality. Getting up to all kinds of sexual shenanigans is probably likely to cause you and others pain and damage, but you have to be the one to decide whether what you do is helping or harming. If you don't believe it, you won't see it through in any case.

    I thoroughly believe that the sexual revolution in the west since the 1960s has liberated millions of people from spiritual and existential harm. It has also damaged many, many people too. Nothing is wholly good or wholly bad. I don't believe in the duality of good and evil. I guess that makes us different.

    I respect you and that difference, but I would ask you not to make sweeping and incorrect statements such as "Modern society now has AIDS which is new from sexual perversions". This is not true. It was a naturally occurring mutation of a virus that was spread and exacerbated through ignorance and it has been tackled and fought back through openess and enlightened thought, not through the imposition of moralistic repression.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 09-09-10 at 08:45 PM.
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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Sexually transmitted diseases are also not even remotely of the "modern age". They have plagued mankind for a very very long time. And AIDS is not the first that kills.
    As for is the modern world better? This depends entirely on your point of view. Remember, I cannot discuss this with you from a spiritual basis, as I am not spiritual. To my way of thinking, nothing is universal, and nothing is never ending. The world, its people, its ideals, its loves, its hates, its trials are in a constant state of flux. What is wrong today may be perfectly okay tomorrow. What is perfectly okay today might be considered a heinous act tomorrow. Holy books such as the Bible and the Koran, or even the teachings of the Buddha should be taken ONLY as guides to life, not as exact blueprints. I know this defies your beliefs, I am merely stating mine.
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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    I seriously considered Taoism for a while. I am rather fond of the concept, and it was appealing to me. Upon researching more though I came across one of the principle tenants of Taoism, and promptly laughed for about 10 minutes. damn..I woulda loved to say I was a Taoist.
    Last edited by opinion8tdwench; 09-09-10 at 08:55 PM.
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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by GodsWrath View Post
    thanks for the clarification. i think i see your point... you are speaking from the point of view that the books were written by men and men are fallible so they're views can be challenged, refuted, and discarded over time like scientic theories or fashion statements. But when God says that the shariah is universal till the end of time it means it is applicaBle and even the best option for every age. Modern society now has AIDS which is new from sexual pervsions, its modern isnt' it?...Chastity is an "old and backwards" view, but sexual freedom is modern..is this better? i mean, they say having sexual partners and what not is good for our character and buildling of relationships...but is that true? something liek 60% of marriages become divorce...

    I go to school being told we live in a society of progress. Do we? My grandma from Iran got married at the age of 13 and she is the brightest woman i know...in many countries, kids at the age of 10 are working at home, helping their mom, their dad at teh shops...In America, a large percentage of kids are addicted to internet pornography and TV. In california, in the 1800's, the legal age of consent was 14. in hawaii in 2001 it was 10... is this progression? are we truly moving forward? we know so much about these things and disregard it.. with that in mind, i like to turn the table and ask you, are we really progressing? is this modern era truly better?

    dont get me wrong, many innovations have benefited humanity like i said..such as medicine, technology...the fact i can talk to my family back home over seas, or that we can cure many deadly diseases..

    i iguess my point in all is that just cuz its modern, doesn't mean its better. you claim that the values of religion are good..(dont murder, steal, cheat etc) thats true, in Islam, God calls these basic values "Fitra" meaning "natural inclination", but that religion or "Deen" meanign, way of life, is more to it that just knowing that killing is wrong...Religion should be a way of life..a life of guidance..

    Lets see Mohammad married Aisha at 9 is that progress? Oh but its ok because it was the prophet. You are completely brainwashed there is no helping you. Ladies and gentlemen this is the moderate muslim. You know what, life is BETTER now then the 8th century. There is something called human rights which apparently your religious theocracies rank dead last in the world. Chopping a thief's hand off is not justice it's wrong and the culmination of learned civilization agrees. There is something called democracy and representative republics that the Islamic civilization can never embrace. You seed discontent and believe we are the ones who caused your downfall from grace when it is your inability to be self critical that is ultimately what has felled you. You cannot even admit that Dhimmitude is wrong, for all I know you probably believe in it. Let me give you a lesson in the power of belief. The most powerful belief is not one that is compelled but instead one that is freely given. Your religion takes the most powerful aspect of the human being away from them. The ability to choose your own destiny and willingly face the results in the afterlife if there is one. It is not your right nor Islams to choose my destiny and guide my hand, I am the master of my own soul and no matter how many times you threaten me with damnation for my false beliefs will I ever submit, for submission is the opposite of freedom and God gave me the choice to follow him. I do not need sharia or another sinful man making decisions in my life, I know whats right and what is wrong and will be damned if you think I would ever accept your archaic rules. Christ taught the basic tenants of life and gave us a choice, a choice of an outstretch hand and not one by the sword or financial servitude.

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by opinion8tdwench View Post
    Let me ask you a question. Is murder wrong because God says it is wrong, or because God KNOWS it is wrong? Meaning..it is simply wrong and God knows this as a fact, or did it become wrong because God stated it?
    It's wrong because He decided it would be wrong and told us not to do it and made it fitrah (natural inclination) for humans to know it's wrong same wrong feeling ppl get when when ppl are naked in front of other ppl. or the guilt a child has when he takes sometign that doesn't belong to him unjustly.. God made it fitrah to feel that and he confirmed that wrong feeling with the exlicit law prohibiting it.

    I highly recommend you read this article too: Sumbul Ali-Karamali: Who's Afraid of Shariah?

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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    So if he decided it would be wrong, then this means that he could change his mind at any time? see, this makes no sense to me. This would make right at wrong totally subjective and potentially subject to change at any time. As for a natural sense of right and wrong? Sorry..that I don't buy. A child does not feel shame running around the house naked. A child does not feel guild if he takes something that does not belong to him. They feel those things only after they have been taught they are wrong. If you teach a child to steal or kill..killing and stealing will not feel "wrong" to them. We have no inborn morality.
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    Re: US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning

    Quote Originally Posted by opinion8tdwench View Post
    I came across one of the principle tenants of Taoism, and promptly laughed for about 10 minutes.
    Ain't you gonna share? See, with a lot of ideas in Buddhism, especially Zen, laughing would be exactly the right response. "What's the sound of one hand clapping?" Get out of here! But you can't help thinking about it.
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