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Afghans protest U.S. church's plans to torch Koran

There are probably millions of "moderate" Muslims, i.e. those who don't participate in honor killings, the stoning of women, the hanging of homosexuals, the murder of innocents, etc. but they are irrelevant. These 'moderates" have had plenty of time to speak out but few have. And many of those who have survived are now living under 24 hour security.

Because Islam is a belief system those who believe in this system can thus be condemned for their silence, just as much as those who are actually carrying out their crimes against humanity..

The fact they are moderate is a enough. They don't have to be public and speak anymore than you and I do when someone acts poorly under the name of chrisitanity. Your standard is a false one.
 
as I said, muslims hate us for who we are, fundamentally. this action will neither increase nor decrease that hatred. funny that I never see "you people" crying about further polarisation of the political/cultural divide when it is a muslim doing something stupid.

tolerance must be a two way street or it is worthless pandering. free speech has to work both ways or it really isn't free.

There it is. But, we all know that some Americans only want things one way. A two way street is out of the question.
 
There are probably millions of "moderate" Muslims, i.e. those who don't participate in honor killings, the stoning of women, the hanging of homosexuals, the murder of innocents, etc. but they are irrelevant. These 'moderates" have had plenty of time to speak out but few have. And many of those who have survived are now living under 24 hour security.

Because Islam is a belief system those who believe in this system can thus be condemned for their silence, just as much as those who are actually carrying out their crimes against humanity..

The reality is that most of those people that are protesting and carrying on and threatening to kill to defend the honor of the Quran ARE what we would call moderates...until something like this happens.
 
The reality is that most of those people that are protesting and carrying on and threatening to kill to defend the honor of the Quran ARE what we would call moderates...until something like this happens.

Which means that there isn't really any such a thing as a, "moderate Muslim". I'm with Oscar; Muslims hate America and Americans as much as they can--yes, even the moderate ones--and nothing is going to change that, nor can they hate us anymore than they do.

They sit around and wait for **** like this to use as an excuse, so the appeasers will give into them; as we're seeing now.
 
The fact they are moderate is a enough. They don't have to be public and speak anymore than you and I do when someone acts poorly under the name of chrisitanity. Your standard is a false one.

No, they don't have to, but doing so would go a long way to mend some fences. If they choose not to, then they can't cry when they think they're getting a bad wrap.

In the Islamic Community, the so called moderate Muslims should either lead, follow, or get the hell ouitta the way.
 
Which means that there isn't really any such a thing as a, "moderate Muslim". I'm with Oscar; Muslims hate America and Americans as much as they can--yes, even the moderate ones--and nothing is going to change that, nor can they hate us anymore than they do.

They sit around and wait for **** like this to use as an excuse, so the appeasers will give into them; as we're seeing now.

I dont know...I think its interesting for Muyslims and not interesting in a good way. For example...ourt own Laila...I dont pretend to know much about her but she seems honest and sincere. I think she SEES the Muslim faith how she would LIKE it to be...I think many do...and I wouldnt call her an extremist. But at the same time in discussions with her she can easily admit (its not like it is a mystery) that in her home country, she would likely take at least a beating if not worse for some of her positions.

I dont know...I know a lot of people from my time in the middle east who are honestly GOOD men and women...that happen to be Muslims. They live their faith in an admirable way. Its very hard for me to fathom that they would EVER be one of the 'moderates' that we see in front of the cameras. But if Im being 100% honest...when the whip came down and they had to make a choice...I dont know which side they would stand on.
 
Yes. The alternative is for elected or appointed officials to decide when it's "safe" for us to have free speech, and I'm not in favor of putting that power into their hands unless the circumstances are so dire as to be unimaginable. It would undermine our constitution and bill of rights, and that's not something I'm willing to do.

Hey, being an American is challenging sometimes. :shrug:

I think this is a great video clip to explain how Americans think about this stuff to non-Americans.



And yes, I support the right of someone to protest outside a funeral, even though I find it abhorrent, and for a mosque to be built near a tragedy caused by extremist muslims, and I support the right of someone to burn an American flag or a Bible or call someone a racial or gender slur, even though I think racists are the most despicable creatures on the planet.

I might find their actions stupid, or even vile, but I will still defend their RIGHT to engage in that act of free speech.


I completley understand your reflex reaction to protect free speech, even when it is loathsome. I share it, but what I'm trying to get people to engage is the question of how far that goes when the exercise of that free speech begins to cost lives. Are the lives of further US troops and countless further innocent moderates not placed in imminent danger by burnign Korans on the front lawn of a pitiful church in Gainesville, one that can barely summon enough worshippers to hold a Bible class. As I pointed out the BoR has been suspended on many occasions in times of war. What makes this case different?
 
I dont know...I think its interesting for Muyslims and not interesting in a good way. For example...ourt own Laila...I dont pretend to know much about her but she seems honest and sincere. I think she SEES the Muslim faith how she would LIKE it to be...I think many do...and I wouldnt call her an extremist. But at the same time in discussions with her she can easily admit (its not like it is a mystery) that in her home country, she would likely take at least a beating if not worse for some of her positions.

I dont know...I know a lot of people from my time in the middle east who are honestly GOOD men and women...that happen to be Muslims. They live their faith in an admirable way. Its very hard for me to fathom that they would EVER be one of the 'moderates' that we see in front of the cameras. But if Im being 100% honest...when the whip came down and they had to make a choice...I dont know which side they would stand on.

From my own mid-eastern experience, I feel purdy sure that your garden variety Muslims is going to side with Islam 99.9% of the time. Muslims aren't going to stand against fellow Muslims. It's considered a sin.
 
From my own mid-eastern experience, I feel purdy sure that your garden variety Muslims is going to side with Islam 99.9% of the time. Muslims aren't going to stand against fellow Muslims. It's considered a sin.

Which is why muslims are the #1 victims of their own religions terrorism...
 
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The fact they are moderate is a enough. They don't have to be public and speak anymore than you and I do when someone acts poorly under the name of chrisitanity. Your standard is a false one.

But we do speak out!

There have been protests against racism by Americans because of the racism of other Americans. We protest against the lack of women's rights, wars, higher taxes and spending, globalization, and any number of things.

When we feel that part of our culture, our politicians and their policies, religious groups (Christian or Jewish) are behaving badly then we protest. It is normal and natural in our culture and part of our heritage. It is expected.

"If you are not part of the solution you're part of the problem".

It has been said that when Islamic terrorists murder us when we are going about our daily business, moderate Muslims will explain and justify the reasons why they are killing us. Every time I hear these 'moderates' speak it is for understanding, for tolerance, for sympathy, that non-Muslims should be sensitive to their feelings, etc.

Too many are part of the problem.
 
But we do speak out!

There have been protests against racism by Americans because of the racism of other Americans. We protest against the lack of women's rights, wars, higher taxes and spending, globalization, and any number of things.

When we feel that part of our culture, our politicians and their policies, religious groups (Christian or Jewish) are behaving badly then we protest. It is normal and natural in our culture and part of our heritage. It is expected.

"If you are not part of the solution you're part of the problem".

It has been said that when Islamic terrorists murder us when we are going about our daily business, moderate Muslims will explain and justify the reasons why they are killing us. Every time I hear these 'moderates' speak it is for understanding, for tolerance, for sympathy, that non-Muslims should be sensitive to their feelings, etc.

Too many are part of the problem.

No, most don't. Sorry, but when the Klan rallies, you might see an opposition group, usually made up of those the klan abuses, but not most Americans, not most Chrisitans, as most say very little publically. Privately? Who knows what the numbers are for sure?

And as moderate muslims too often feel the pain of being stereotyped and wrongly accused, I certainly understand why understanding might be high on their priority list.

We're a strong enough people that we don't need to present false standards on people. We need to focus on those actually guilty and stop painting with too broad a brush.
 
No, most don't. Sorry, but when the Klan rallies, you might see an opposition group, usually made up of those the klan abuses, but not most Americans, not most Chrisitans, as most say very little publically. Privately? Who knows what the numbers are for sure?


A Klan rally? When was the last time you've seen a Klan Rally? These people have been protested right out of the protesting circle and are the subject of derision. And are you saying that, 'Privately', most people agree with the Klan?? And of course Christians are protesting as well. I honestly don;t know how you got this take but you are not an American, are you?.
And as moderate muslims too often feel the pain of being stereotyped and wrongly accused,

Then point out just where they feel stereotyped and wrongly accused and we'll do what we can to stop it, just as they should be doing.

I certainly understand why understanding might be high on their priority list.

They should be understanding the culture and history of their host countries and to loudly protest against their leaders who are dividing the democratic societies. But they won't because they can also see that Islam is winning. They are the strong horse united and the democracies are the scattered weak horses.
We're a strong enough people that we don't need to present false standards on people.

No, you are not strong, you are weak, and they know it. And what "false standards are you referring to?

We need to focus on those actually guilty and stop painting with too broad a brush.

Do you have any idea of who is guilty and who isn't? How do you tell them apart? Now terrorists are often second generation in the democracies and know one knew who they are. Did you?

We have seen Muslim protesters but they do not usually take on the form of protesting Muslim violence and terrorism.

Muslim Protest Photographs - Pictures From London

Are you aware of any Muslim counter protests to these, apart from the usual mild admonitions which have become part of the game?

A Klan rally? When was the last time you've sen a Klan Rally? These people have been protested right out of the protesting cirlce and are the subject of derision. And are you saying that, 'Privately', most people agree with the Klan?? You are not an American, are you?.
 
Which is why muslims are the #1 victims of their own religions terrorism...

I hear repeatedly, that Muslim terrorists are an abomination to Islam, yet I'm confused as to why Muslims don't stand up and wear their asses out. Muslims have the most to gain from the terrorists being destroyed, but they sit back and do nothing, but make excuses for the terrorists.
 
Sounds like it's time for Christians to protest and burn a few mosques.
Yup, let's descend to their level of barbarity. That'll show 'em that our religion is superior!

:roll:
 
Yup, let's descend to their level of barbarity. That'll show 'em that our religion is superior!

:roll:

yeah, much better to turn the other cheek. that way they have access to both the jugular and carotid when beheading us.
 
yeah, much better to turn the other cheek. that way they have access to both the jugular and carotid when beheading us.
And we can pepper the situation with a little bit of ridiculously unrelated hyperbole!
 
I hear repeatedly, that Muslim terrorists are an abomination to Islam, yet I'm confused as to why Muslims don't stand up and wear their asses out. Muslims have the most to gain from the terrorists being destroyed, but they sit back and do nothing, but make excuses for the terrorists.

Why do most Muslims have the most to gain by destrying terrorists, 10K?

Those Muslims who "sit back and do nothing, but make excuses for the terrorists" are called "moderates".
 
Yup, let's descend to their level of barbarity. That'll show 'em that our religion is superior!

:roll:

"our religion"? What religion is that?

I think they already know that life in the democracies is more free and the standard of living is much higher but that only adds to their idea that we our all 'infidels', who put money before other saintly virtues. (I used 'saintly' advisedly)

All other religions, and that would include fire worship or praying to trees, appear superior to the "Religion of Perpetual Outrage".
 
I hear repeatedly, that Muslim terrorists are an abomination to Islam, yet I'm confused as to why Muslims don't stand up and wear their asses out. Muslims have the most to gain from the terrorists being destroyed, but they sit back and do nothing, but make excuses for the terrorists.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Apparently you've never heard of Tahir al-Qadri's fatwa on terrorism. It's a great read at just over six hundred pages. If you read it (which I know you won't), you wouldn't be asinine statements like the one above. I'll reply back once you've actually read it.
 
I dont know...I think its interesting for Muyslims and not interesting in a good way. For example...ourt own Laila...I dont pretend to know much about her but she seems honest and sincere. I think she SEES the Muslim faith how she would LIKE it to be...I think many do...and I wouldnt call her an extremist. But at the same time in discussions with her she can easily admit (its not like it is a mystery) that in her home country, she would likely take at least a beating if not worse for some of her positions.

I dont know...I know a lot of people from my time in the middle east who are honestly GOOD men and women...that happen to be Muslims. They live their faith in an admirable way. Its very hard for me to fathom that they would EVER be one of the 'moderates' that we see in front of the cameras. But if Im being 100% honest...when the whip came down and they had to make a choice...I dont know which side they would stand on.

Actually in my home country, not really and I have never said anything like that. In the ME and other Muslim countries. Yes.
I love the country I originate from and because it is democratic there is little to no chances of being beaten for expressing my views. :shrug:

I see Islam as how I interpret it with my influences. I have no idea how Islam is truly meant to be because only Allah has that knowledge. One can only work with what they have been given and hope they have been a good enough person to face judgement day. I do not deny the fact there are problems within the Muslim community.

Whip concerning what? Choice on what? Be more specific.
It is dependent on the circumstances and events which would determine which "side I come down on".
No one side or the other has my unquestionable loyalty and neither deserve it. Especially considering me and my culture, only one thing has my loyalty in this world
 
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"I do not deny the fact there are problems within the Muslim community"

Gee, Laila.

Ya think?

When has their not been problems?
 
"I do not deny the fact there are problems within the Muslim community"

Gee, Laila.

Ya think?

When has their not been problems?

U mad?
:roll:
 
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Let me open with this disclaimer. I do NOT condone what this church in Florida plans to do. I think it is intolerant, and inciting while American lives are in direct contact danger in the ME.

But I would like to delve beyond the usual argument here, and discuss why it is ok, seemingly, for members of Islam to constantly desecrate things like the American Flag, and burn churches and bibles over there, while here it raises nary a story, but have one whacked church here threaten to burn a Koran, and all hell breaks loose in the press, and on the ground there.


j-mac

I agree. The apes in the middle east who are threating violence over this issue need to be exterminated by any means necessary.
 
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