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Thread: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

  1. #261
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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    The terms are the same for everyone. Where is the discrimination?
    Because the terms do not respect the preferences of the applicant groups. The terms by their nature respect the preferences of people who beleive marriage is a union between man and woman, not people who would will otherwise.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 09-09-10 at 03:04 PM.
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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Because the terms do not respect the preferences of the applicant groups.
    That doesn't in any way mean those terms legally discrimnate or violate the equal protection clause.
    "I dont get to do what I want to do" does not a dsicrimination argument make.

    Under this argument, states that do not have shall-issue concealed-carry laws discriminate against those that would have a concealed-carry permit because the terms of the states laws "do not respect the preferences of the applicant groups".
    Last edited by Goobieman; 09-09-10 at 03:14 PM.

  3. #263
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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That is correct, which is why I suspect you're trying to make it about gender discrimination when it's not.
    That's all it IS about. There is no other issue.

    He worded it that way because that's what he focused on. And what almost all "gay marriage" proponents focus on.
    Because the gender discrimination affects them most. It doesn't affect heterosexuals.

    Thus, you agree with my point.
    I don't know. What is your point.


    You've got millions who disagree with you on that one. Not sure what else to say.
    Those millions are wrong. They don't ask you your sexual orientation when you apply for a marriage license.

    They do ask your gender, though.

    Not for most.
    For ALL. They just focus on sexualilty because it affects homo and bisexuals.

    No, his ruling is quite specifically based on discrimination against sexual orientation, which he finds equivalent to gender discrimination. You can keep saying it isn't, but it is. It's right there in his own words.
    Yes, I know, I read his words. And he mentions gender quite a bit. I see it in black and white, in his own words. Hence my pointing to his ruling.

    If there were no gender, there would be no heterosexuality or homosexuality. He focused on sexual orientation. I don't know how much clearer he could have been on that.
    Not talking about the existence of gender, but the existence of gender as the core issue. Sexual orientation is irrelevant to marriage. Always has been. It's not even in question. They don't ask what your sexual orientation is. They ask your GENDER, or sex if you will. I don't see how much clearer that could be.

    But because there is blatant sex discrimination, and only homosexuals and bisexuals are adversely affected by it, then it does turn into a a discrimination of homo and bi-sexuals. But a discrimination based on sex.

    Only because you're choosing to frame it a certain way. If you're going to argue gender discrimination, then you have to look at what the equvalency between the genders implies.

    Marrying a woman is not an identical prospect for me as it is for you, so it's not equivalent.
    Yes, it is.

    Neither of us can marry the same sex. The law is applied equally.
    No, it is not. You can marry a woman, and I cannot. That is not equal.

    Because race was irrelevant to marriage as it existed.
    Because it violated equal protection.

    That may be, but that doesn't have anything to do with equal protection.
    It has to do with changing the current definition.

    "Gender discrimination" is the ONLY argument in favor of allowing people to form whatever relationships they like? That's simply silly.
    Yes. The ban is based on gender/sex and gender/sex alone. Revoking that ban due to it's blatant discrimination based on sex is the only argument and the only recourse.
    Last edited by rivrrat; 09-09-10 at 03:13 PM.

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That doesn't in any way mean those terms legally discrimnate or violate the equal protection clause.
    "I dont get to do what I want to do" does not a dsicrimination argument make.
    It does if marriage is a civil right. Which it is. You can't limit a person's practice of a right out of favortism toward a certain ideological viewpoint. You can limit it only if there is a compelling material obstacle.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 09-09-10 at 03:16 PM.
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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    It does if marriage is a civil right. Which it is.
    It does not, and it is not.
    -The terms of the privilige are applied equally to everyone and as such there can be no discrimination; that some people do not get to exercize that privilege exactly as they would like to doesnt mean they are being discriminated against.

    -Marriage is a creature of the state and exists only because the state created it - and so is a privilege, not a right.

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    No, it is not. You can marry a woman, and I cannot. That is not equal.
    Both of your can marry someone of the opposite gender; neither of you can marry someone of the same gender. That's equal.

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Both of your can marry someone of the opposite gender; neither of you can marry someone of the same gender. That's equal.
    So a woman can do something I can not and you call that equal?

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    It does not, and it is not.
    -The terms of the privilige are applied equally to everyone and as such there can be no discrimination; that some people do not get to exercize that privilege exactly as they would like to doesnt mean they are being discriminated against.

    -Marriage is a creature of the state and exists only because the state created it - and so is a privilege, not a right.
    Is Marriage a Civil Right? - Why Marriage is a Civil Right

    Marriage is a civil right. The courts defined it as such 40 years ago.

    Anthropologically, marriage belongs as much to the market and religion as the state. There have been marriages in anarchical communities, like medieval Iceland, based on market and religious demands. If marriage were truly a creature of the state, it could not exist even in a minimal form outside the state.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 09-09-10 at 03:25 PM.
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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Both of your can marry someone of the opposite gender; neither of you can marry someone of the same gender. That's equal.
    You can marry a woman and I cannot. That is not equal.

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    His ruling is based in gender discrimination, but he wraps it up into sexual orientation.
    No.. he clearly states the opposite: "the court determines that plaintiffs’ equal protection claim is based on sexual orientation," arguing that sex and sexual orientation are "necessarily interrelated" but that sexual orientation discrimination is distinct (though related) to sex discrimination.

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