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Thread: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Is procreation fundamental to marriage, and is it an interest the state must protect to the exclusion of all others?
    I would absolutely love it if you could provide some sort of explaination as to why procreation should be considered first and foremost when it comes to marriage. Obviously this is your opinion, but what possible rational explaination can you use to justify it?

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Uh huh, so where is the science, CT? Have any?

    Tim-
    Absolutely.

    Here is Walker's ruling.

    California Prop 8 Ruling (August 2010)

    He cites every study of relevance and the expert witness testimony.

    Bring up whichever studies you want to contest. We can talk about each and every one of them if you want.

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Singularity -

    This is the question the court needs to answer. Is procreation fundamental to marriage, and is it an interest the state must protect to the exclusion of all others? I say yes, what "they" say when it all comes to fruition is what's important.
    So, now it's a question that the court needs to answer? What happened to the position you so vehemently defended a few pages back? And what about your elaboration - when do I get to see it?

    I'm not belittling your argument - far from it. I think the arguments that you and the others against same sex marriage put forth are crucial to the workings of our great republic, and while I disagree with you all on the issue, these arguments nevertheless need to be addressed. The fact of the matter is that there are many questions that folks have about the ramifications of the legality of same sex marriage, and they deserve to be answered. As for myself, I think there is enough evidence to proceed with legalization, and I would very much like to see same sex marriage the law of the land.

    I imagine you and I will continue this debate for a while to come, either in this thread or any other that pops up on the issue.

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I would absolutely love it if you could provide some sort of explaination as to why procreation should be considered first and foremost when it comes to marriage. Obviously this is your opinion, but what possible rational explaination can you use to justify it?
    I have... And yes it is my opinion.


    Tim-
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    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    So, now it's a question that the court needs to answer? What happened to the position you so vehemently defended a few pages back? And what about your elaboration - when do I get to see it?

    I'm not belittling your argument - far from it. I think the arguments that you and the others against same sex marriage put forth are crucial to the workings of our great republic, and while I disagree with you all on the issue, these arguments nevertheless need to be addressed. The fact of the matter is that there are many questions that folks have about the ramifications of the legality of same sex marriage, and they deserve to be answered. As for myself, I think there is enough evidence to proceed with legalization, and I would very much like to see same sex marriage the law of the land.

    I imagine you and I will continue this debate for a while to come, either in this thread or any other that pops up on the issue.
    I suspect we will clash from time to time, however, I find your demeanor to be positiive, and I respect your opinon on the matter. I thought you presented yourself very well. I just happen to disagree. We will see how it turns out.


    Tim-
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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Absolutely.

    Here is Walker's ruling.

    California Prop 8 Ruling (August 2010)

    He cites every study of relevance and the expert witness testimony.

    Bring up whichever studies you want to contest. We can talk about each and every one of them if you want.
    I could but I won't. I consider phycology, and psychiatry to be "science-light". I have successfully argued with Redress on many of her parenting studies, and so on and so forth. I do not deny the homosexual capacity to succesfully raise children in healthy happy homes. However, I do reserve my judgenment until really good studies come out, ones where apples are compared to apples, and not oranges.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I could but I won't. I consider phycology, and psychiatry to be "science-light". I have successfully argued with Redress on many of her parenting studies, and so on and so forth. I do not deny the homosexual capacity to succesfully raise children in healthy happy homes. However, I do reserve my judgenment until really good studies come out, ones where apples are compared to apples, and not oranges.


    Tim-
    That is perfectly fair. In fact, I wish you exercised such critical thinking in all your views. Then we probably wouldn't have to debate 3 pages on the legal definition of a "fundamental right".

    Also, if you had been less lazy and actually read Walker's ruling, then I think you would have been more informed on the topic and could have used those same critical thinking skills to find other areas to reserve judgment.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 09-08-10 at 05:09 AM.

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Not to mention that marriage is, in fact, a fundamental right. Loving v. Virginia.
    That's true...but there was no need to even debate that because his entire underlying premise is wrong.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    And isn't that what was argued in court, the right of the individual to marry his/her same sex partner?
    Whether it was or wasn't, it isn't what you're arguing here.

    Regarding your second question, I would answer with one of my own. Why would someone get married to a partner that he/she was not sexually attracted to nowadays? Do you know of such examples personally? And given that it's a possibility, would those be healthy marriages, you think?
    People marry for many reasons, as is pointed out every time someone says that the point of marriage is children.

    People may marry for convenience. People may marry because they want money. People may marry because they just want companionship. Or they want security. In none of those cases is sexual attraction necessary.

    Nor is a "healthy" marriage necessary for the right to marry be exercised, especially considering that the definition of "health" in a marriage may and does vary widely from person to person.

    So, I ask again -- why is sexuality a necessary component of marriage?
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    Re: Court won't force state to defend Prop. 8

    Hicup - What does science have to do with it? If a man wants to marry a man, or a woman wants to marry a woman, it is none of the government's damn business.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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