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Thread: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

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    Re: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    God didn't command any murders in Deuteronomy. Laws and punishments were given. The Ten Commandments do not contain any commands to kill.
    Can't you read? These are God's commandments. The Famous Ten are not the only ones, would that they were. What element of this commandment is unclear or equivocal?
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    Re: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Can't you read? These are God's commandments. The Famous Ten are not the only ones, would that they were. What element of this commandment is unclear or equivocal?
    The Bible has a lot of violence, but it is presented as history for the most part, not as a command. The laws in Deuteronomy include capital punishment for some crimes, but while God commands the Israelites to kill everyone when they were conquering Canaan, he doesn't tell them to continue doing it to everyone or even anyone else. It records a historical event, not an ongoing command. No one cites Exodus or Joshua as justification for killing off all of the Arabs in the Palestinian territories, Syria, etc. The plagues on Egypt are not construed as permission to kill Egyptians.

    The new testament confines its divine violence to Revelations, something that will come. Certainly not a command to do it now.

    When reading the Bible it helps to look at and differentiate between historical accounts, prophecy (which frequently uses language that is less than clear) and ongoing commands.

    As an example, the laws in Deuteronomy require a little thought. The behavioral crime or sin described is for the most part, still a sin or a crime. But the punishment was a civil punishment, not divine. The new Testament went on to clarify that civil punishments are up to the state, God will handle the divine end of things.

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    Re: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    The Bible has a lot of violence, but it is presented as history for the most part, not as a command. The laws in Deuteronomy include capital punishment for some crimes, but while God commands the Israelites to kill everyone when they were conquering Canaan, he doesn't tell them to continue doing it to everyone or even anyone else. It records a historical event, not an ongoing command. No one cites Exodus or Joshua as justification for killing off all of the Arabs in the Palestinian territories, Syria, etc. The plagues on Egypt are not construed as permission to kill Egyptians.

    The new testament confines its divine violence to Revelations, something that will come. Certainly not a command to do it now.

    When reading the Bible it helps to look at and differentiate between historical accounts, prophecy (which frequently uses language that is less than clear) and ongoing commands.

    As an example, the laws in Deuteronomy require a little thought. The behavioral crime or sin described is for the most part, still a sin or a crime. But the punishment was a civil punishment, not divine. The new Testament went on to clarify that civil punishments are up to the state, God will handle the divine end of things.
    That's a very retrospective interpretation. In Old Testament, allowing sinners to be brought misfortune down on the community. Natural disasters, for example. Israel and Judah were theocratic governments, so the difference between 'civil' and 'divine' punishment was blurry.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 09-04-10 at 10:44 PM.
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    Re: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    The Old Testament seems quite compatible with the violent tendencies of the wildest Islamists. No Biblical justification for barbarity?

    "If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you." Deuteronomy 22:23

    Good ole Moses and his sermons! He tried to get everyone *on board* har har - pun intended. *rimshot*

    In response to Moses' teachings this happened:

    Quote Originally Posted by John 8
    1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

    But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

    9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

    11"No one, sir," she said.
    "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
    The Bible's complex - nothing's easy to peg for/against it's statements and beliefs.

    In the Christian Bible the New Testament, crucifixion and ressurection (among other things - written about in Mathew and Mark) takes place/are different - this is where the Bible *changes* and alters it's course. Instead of the "old testament things" there is a new belief and value given to life and so forth *because* of Christ's crucifixion.

    the Old Rules, laws and regulations, essentially, are no longer applicable post Crucifixion and there's a huge effort by Jesus and his disciples to see to it that things progress in this new direction. . . and no longer exist as they once were.



    Now - I'll wander off. I get miffed when I have to resort to bible gateway to intercede on behalf of religion.
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    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 09-04-10 at 11:18 PM.
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    Re: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Anytime you want to compare voilent acts by declared Christians and Muslims in the last 100 years let me know.

    Its incredible people still make this rediculus comparison.
    You mean like the American Evangelicals who supported the Ugandan bill that would hang "repeat homosexual offenders"?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/wo.../04uganda.html

    Have you forgotten Northern Ireland (Protestants vs. Catholics)? 3,000 to 4,000 killed?

    The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda (a Christian separatist group - ironic, I suppose given the previous link about Uganda) is estimated to have killed as many as 20,000 and are well-known for kidnapping children for their army.

    Lord's Resistance Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The KKK (especially in its early inception) was a (in their minds) very Christian organization (estimated death toll according to the SPLC, 4,000 to 5,000)

    You can certainly argue that none of these groups are truly Christian (fairly so), but if you do that, then you must accept that Muslim extremists don't represent the truth of Islam.

    But yes, this douchebag should be punished and he's an ass. So is Fred Phelps.

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    Re: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Have you forgotten Northern Ireland (Protestants vs. Catholics)? 3,000 to 4,000 killed?
    Are you claiming that Northern Ireland was a religious conflict and that the IRA was acting in the name of The Church or with the Pope's blessing?

    That conflict is nationalist/separatist, not religious.
    The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda (a Christian separatist group - ironic, I suppose given the previous link about Uganda) is estimated to have killed as many as 20,000 and are well-known for kidnapping children for their army.

    The KKK (especially in its early inception) was a (in their minds) very Christian organization (estimated death toll according to the SPLC, 4,000 to 5,000)

    You can certainly argue that none of these groups are truly Christian (fairly so), but if you do that, then you must accept that Muslim extremists don't represent the truth of Islam.

    But yes, this douchebag should be punished and he's an ass. So is Fred Phelps.
    The KKK and their successors do say they are "Christian, but one must point out that 99.9% of other Christians actively oppose them. They don't rally in support or condemn in the town square and praise them in the pulpit.

    Again 99.9% of christians in the Unisted States are against what the extremist groups that YOU stated stand for.

    What you will NEVER see is Islam control itself, or keep in order. When sectors of a group become radical, it is up to the group to realize that threat as counter productive and marginalize it. Islam will not do this.

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    Re: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

    [QUOTE=FilmFestGuy;1058964304]You mean like the American Evangelicals who supported the Ugandan bill that would hang "repeat homosexual offenders"?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/wo.../04uganda.html

    Here's the response of one of them. "“I feel duped,” Mr. Schmierer said, arguing that he had been invited to speak on “parenting skills” for families with gay children. He acknowledged telling audiences how homosexuals could be converted into heterosexuals, but he said he had no idea some Ugandans were contemplating the death penalty for homosexuality".

    It is ignorant to preach against homosexuality, for certain, and we can see the harmful consequences of this craziness. These Christians, and everyone in fact, must occasionally be reminded that "we are all God's children".

    But that doesn't compensate for the terrorism Islam is bringing to the free world. The threats against Geert Wilders should not be diluted nor should we resort to equivalence or relativism because there isn't any. As you know, no group is more anti-homosexual than Muslims. Christians, on the whole, now fully accept it.

    Have you forgotten Northern Ireland (Protestants vs. Catholics)? 3,000 to 4,000 killed?
    While the division was usually religious the demands weren't. Iraq's war with Iran could also be declared a religious war between Islamic groups, but there was probably more to it than religion there also,

    The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda (a Christian separatist group - ironic, I suppose given the previous link about Uganda) is estimated to have killed as many as 20,000 and are well-known for kidnapping children for their army.
    Their are many crazy groups in Africa and they usually don't need religion to get violent and genocidal. I think we should stick to what the Muslims are doing in the democracies rather than trying to confuse the issue through comparisons with what's going on in Africa, despite Muslims creating problems there also. We've got our hands full here.

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    Re: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

    "You can certainly argue that none of these groups are truly Christian (fairly so), but if you do that, then you must accept that Muslim extremists don't represent the truth of Islam".
    This might be a valid argument if we were to see Muslims out on the streets protesting against this latest outrage, but we don't. It seems you are only guessing here and, because it seems you tend to be a sympathetic person anyway, are reading things into the situation that aren't necessarily there.

    Fred Phelps is terrible and an embarrassment to Christians everywhere. That's why they are out there protesting against Phelps along with every other decent person.

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    Re: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    One could argue I believe that both people represented a minority of the religion as a whole.
    That's certainly conjecture in the case of Islam, Soccerboy22, but we can often see Christians out protesting against inhumane acts and injustice. When an Andres Serrano did Piss Christ Piss Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia many Christians certainly protested but there were no calls for his beheading. But publish a cartoon of Mohammad and people are being murdered all over the world.

    Islam is a backward religion and a threat to anyone who dares oppose it. That's what Mohammed taught and that's what a significant number of Muslims are saying today. We can see it being acted out everywhere. These people are not of the 'turn the other cheek' variety.

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    Re: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician

    Obligatory atheist response the the "Islam versus Christianity" pissing contest - take one!

    /cue Steve Pavlina

    If you devote serious time to the practice of either Christianity or Islam, then you're flushing much of your precious life down the drain with little or nothing to show for it. First, you’ll waste a lot of time filling your head with useless nonsense. This includes reading some of the worst fiction ever written. Then there are various rules, laws, and practices to learn - all of which seek to keep you from doing fun things or living peacefully with folks who don't live their lives the same way you do. And then there are the actual stories. Seriously, if you have insomnia, try reading religious texts before bedtime. You’ll be asleep faster than you can say Mohammed. Why do you think hotels put Bibles next to the bed? It’s the greatest sedative known to man.

    I have to give props to the Scientologists for at least incorporating space aliens into their stories. It’s a shame Gene Roddenberry didn’t formally invent his own religion; the Klingon afterlife sounds like a lot of fun.

    In addition to being a serious waste of time, religious practice can also be a huge waste of money. For starters, when you donate to a major religion, you support its expansion, which means you’re facilitating the enslavement of your fellow humans. That isn’t very nice, now is it? If you feel the urge to donate money, give it to a real and honorable cause, not a fabricated one. Better yet, go outside and do something that really helps people. If you can’t think of anything better, grab a can of paint and clean up some local graffiti.

    Your religious donations fund freeloaders who mooch off society but who generally provide little or no value in return. Sure there are some religious people who perform valuable public services, but for the most part, it's all about gettin' more sheep. In addition, these freeloaders typically operate tax-free, meaning they’re effectively subsidized by taxpayers. That’s a great racket if you’re on the receiving side - not so great if you’re funding it, though.

    Moderator's Warning:
    Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politicianEdited to comply with Fair-Use
    Last edited by Tashah; 09-05-10 at 03:27 AM. Reason: Fair-Use

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