• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A U.S. 'legacy of waste' in Iraq

My point was that Yes- this is Bush-onomic FAILURE and it's most humiliating.

But he's not *the first and only president* to toss our money down the unfinished crapper (literally, apparently).

We need to REALLY try to tackle this problem so in the future - when we in someone else's hood - we don't do the SAME thing again.
 
Wiseone said:
Well the Army and the rest of the military has learned a lot from Iraq, so much in fact that we are a better prepared, more capable army, which if it had to re-do Iraq it could be done much better a second time around. And those COIN operations can be used all over the world, so hopefully other branches of the government learned as much as the military did.
Click to expand...

I believe you mean the third time around. Two wars there so far, so the next will be number 3, right?

If we are learning so much from invading Iraq, we should just invade for the third time right now. Learning and learning and learning. Man, we'd be military geniuses, wouldn't we?
 
Wiseone said:
Well the Army and the rest of the military has learned a lot from Iraq, so much in fact that we are a better prepared, more capable army, which if it had to re-do Iraq it could be done much better a second time around. And those COIN operations can be used all over the world, so hopefully other branches of the government learned as much as the military did.
Click to expand...

Then why have we not won in Afghanistan??
 
Afghanistan and Iraq are very different wars, what worked in Iraq may not work in Afghanistan. And Afghanistan is much more complex, its a much tougher nut to crack and to be successful in Afghanistan is going to take much more time than Iraq.

By the way, thats not an excuse or a partisan opinion. Its an unbiased analysis of the situation, I'm not attempting to support any side or opinion when I say how much tougher and different Afghanistan is from Iraq, I'm simply looking at the facts and giving my analysis of what I see.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Did we ever "win" in Iraq?

We're not fighting a war of attrition.
Click to expand...

Agreed. What is winning in the first place? In Iraq. we've mostly played referee. Last time I checked, referees don't win.
 
Boo Radley said:
Agreed. What is winning in the first place? In Iraq. we've mostly played referee. Last time I checked, referees don't win.
Click to expand...

We left a lot unfinished, that's for certain - and over the yeras more 'fails' will come to light.
If things are going differently in Afghanistan I hope it's for the better.
 
PeteEU said:
A U.S. 'legacy of waste' in Iraq - latimes.com

As the rest of the world have been saying for ages... but I love this part.



or




Talk about incompetence... but guessing the Bush officials in charge got promoted for this.
Click to expand...

Look, the Bush administration was incompetent, I will grant you that. But Bush has not been in power for almost 2 years. Obama has had all this time to correct things, but he hasn't. This makes him just as culpable as Bush was, but since Bush is no longer in power, it is all on Obama's lap now. At this time, it IS Obama's fault.
 
danarhea said:
Look, the Bush administration was incompetent, I will grant you that. But Bush has not been in power for almost 2 years. Obama has had all this time to correct things, but he hasn't. This makes him just as culpable as Bush was, but since Bush is no longer in power, it is all on Obama's lap now. At this time, it IS Obama's fault.
Click to expand...

it's in his lap now, but the difference is like the differnece between the person who destoryed a house and the person who has to address those damages. Not only are the expectations different, but factually, what can and can't be done is different. Ending the combat role is a good first step, but not much more. The fact is having invaded in the first place leaves us far less options than many of us would like.

And while I see Afghanistan as different and more understandable, as there is a concern there, I don't think Obama has had any better ability to clarify the mission and rightly chart the best course of action. It too will likely end less satisfying than many hope for.
 
danarhea said:
Look, the Bush administration was incompetent, I will grant you that. But Bush has not been in power for almost 2 years. Obama has had all this time to correct things, but he hasn't. This makes him just as culpable as Bush was, but since Bush is no longer in power, it is all on Obama's lap now. At this time, it IS Obama's fault.
Click to expand...

I disagree fully. The aura of corruption in Iraq is two fold.. Iraqi born and American born. The occupation administration was corrupt as hell both politically and financially from the start. On top of that the people the US trusted (and got false intel from) and gave the country over too, were just as corrupt if not more corrupt that the regime that they replaced.

If we look at the US occupation forces, it was designed from the get go, to be utterly corrupt with no bid contracts to "friendly companies", only hiring non Iraqi's for the most part to do the jobs and a total lack of transparency and accountability. Many out right criminals who exploited the void and lack of transparency have gone scott free from prosecution and often (not always) they were "well connected" to the right type of politicians so to say. We have seen TV investigations outing special Bush pioneers who got contracts to provide material to the US forces or reconstruction and basically scammed the US government and were never prosecuted.

Now on the Iraq side... corruption is part of life in the middle east (not only Iraqi) and always has been. Fighting that with "western" ideas and means, is frankly idiotic since it is such part of society. Curbing it as much as possible is the only way, but it does not help that the people the US put into power were just as corrupt as Saddam if not more. There was the Iraqi intelligence minister that stole over a billion dollars and is now hiding in Europe and other parts of the world. Then there was the guy who exposed him.. last I heard he was till alive, but living in exile since the government that employed him to sniff out corruption have an arrest warrant out on him for... you got it.. corruption. As far as we know his only crime was to expose corruption among high ranking officials... he just exposed the "wrong officials" and it pissed off the powerful ones.

Point is Iraq was and is a cest pool when it comes to corruption, and where the US stayed or not would not change much. The only thing that would change, would the billions of US taxpayer money being lost due to US corruption at every level.

While you can blame Obama for many things, some legit.. some not, this is in no way his fault as he was handed a catch 22 situation. Could he have gone after the corrupt American's? Sure, but to be brutally frank,.. because of lack of transparency and records, convicting them would be hard, and it would end up in a partisan cluster**** because many of them have connections to the Republican party and it could potentially tear the country apart and no one wants to see that happening.
 
American said:
Please list everyone in the rest of the world by name that said this.
Click to expand...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/world/middleeast/03reconstruct.html?_r=1 from 2006

Asia Times - Asia's most trusted news source for the Middle East from 2004

Iraq Occupation Ran On Policy of Corruption, Witnesses Say - The NewStandard from 2007

there are plenty of links and news stories out there.. just google it.. not my fault you bought the propaganda of the Bush administration and still believe it.
 
bravo for barry!

but if ANYTHING goes wrong over there...

the msm are SETTING HIM UP

washingtonpost.com

My Way News - FACT CHECK: Is Iraq combat really over for US?

and they are prepared to HAMMER him

it's almost impossible NOT to see so many moves ahead

encroachment by shiite iran, al qaeda in iraq, parliamentary paralysis, political collapse, sectarian violence, even civil war...

this is "not the right moment for a victory lap"

what he has managed to do, here, is to "raise expectations"

our presidential putz better hope his affable, gaffe-able, laughable veep is correct when he so cavalierly declares of the iraqis, "they'll be fine"

because if they're not...
 
and even the most ogling obamite has to see the disaster unfolding in afghanistan, OBAMA's WAR, direct consequence of his executive incompetence

his collaborator, karzai, is a kook AND a crook

the enemy we seek, al qaeda, aren't even in afghanistan

our "friends" in pakistan are selling us out to the taliban

his withdrawal deadline of next july gives us no chance of success---winter is coming, we're bogged down in helmand, delayed in kandahar...

we're essentially gonna have a few months in the spring to "win" whatever the heck WAR the wunderkind has ESCALATED

our soldiers are still operating under ridiculously unrealistic roe's, rules of engagement, as if written by some montessori

TWENTY ONE american soldiers have been KILLED over there in the last 4 days, bringing august's tragic toll to 56, after 66 fell in june and 60 in july (the 2 highest months on record, in this longest war in our history)

he opposed the surge in iraq which made possible his victory lap last nite, then he adopted the same strategy in these impossible mountains on the moon, which is madness

are you sure this guy knows what he's doing?

afghanistan, OBAMA's WAR, is gonna kill this president, as well as more of our heroes and heroines than any of us can stand

worry
 
zimmer said:
Oh my... this is what happens after having a massive OD of Kool Aid.

They will be paying the price?
Do you realize 1 million people died under sanctions and Maddie Albright claimed it was "worth the cost"?
Click to expand...

Do you realize higher estimates put the dead at 1 million as a result f the invasion now?

Do you realize they won't have rape rooms, be throwing people off building and won't be murdered because the leader feels threatened?
Click to expand...

Do you realize that during the more heated years of the occupation torture was far more widespread than ever on saddam

Do you realize the Iraqi's are benefiting from the defeat of Saddam and the neutering of terrorists that flocked to the area after the war?
Click to expand...

In exchange for thousands of homegrown ones?

Do you realize it is now a democracy with a constitution, not a hell hole of evil run by a tyrant and his sick sons and cling-ons?
Click to expand...
I guess thats nice. But I dont knw what star trek has to do with this.

Do you realize he used WMD, had them and Hans Blix reported to the UN he lied about what he had and they believed he was in possession of WMD?
Click to expand...

Do you realize his WMDs were supplied by the US to fight Iran? And that he had no nuclear capabilities and was no threat to US and the war was based on lies.

Phew... what they teach kids in school these days.
Click to expand...

Education may alleviate your political psychosis.
Click to expand...
 
i stated above that it was my opinion that obama made his second oval office address last nite on this topic he selected because he saw himself as having very few political triumphs to trumpet

his "saved" car industry, i noted was one (by his thinking)

his fulfillment of his campaign promise to pullout of iraq was his other (regardless, it appears, of the situation on the ground and the consequences geopolitically and regionally of certain events that are not difficult to foresee...)

well, today we learned that auto sales suffered their worst august in 28 years

Weak auto sales are latest sign of sluggish U.S. economy - Sep. 1, 2010

so much for that presidential talking point

as for iraq, the president did keep his campaign promise, but is he wise to do so?

i'm speaking, as always, politically

most the msm's are expressing serious reservations and concerns

once again, these encompass iran, sects, civilian violence, political instability, al qaeda...

politico this afternoon expresses another

President Obama turns the page ? to Afghanistan - Ben Smith - POLITICO.com

closing the chapter in iraq, naturally, merely leads to the next

and exactly how do YOU feel about what's going on these bloody days in afghanistan?

for what are our bravest and brightest men and women sacrificing in the mountains that undid the ussr?
 
continuing to turn pages, next in barry's book, which clearly lacks a chapter on realpolitik, is this dialogue between israel and the "palestinians" he's putting so much of his capital into

Opinion: Mideast peace talks' hidden threat - Jonathan Schanzer - POLITICO.com

these things i did not know, and they are scarily serious:

obama's peace talks embrace only the leaders of the west bank and NOT GAZA

40% of extant palestinians live in old philistia, they are represented by a political wing of hamas who were very popularly elected

that is, there is reason to believe that the political leaders of gaza express well the sentiments of palestinians at large, ie, even those on the banks of the jordan

by including only the palestinian authority in his peace talks, obama is "excising" almost half the oppressed, as well as those who are probably the most apt spokespeople of palestinian hearts

by recognizing the unelected authority obama gives credance to (according to roger simon's journo listers) "another illegitimate authoritarian middle east regime"

and "that's certainly not a pro palestinian policy"

by isolating gaza obama, evidently unwittingly, leaves hamas with "little choice but continuing to remain on the iranian dole"

"dole," tho accurate, may not be the most telling word to describe this relationship

some discussion of client status may be more pertinent

gaza remains an "official terrorist state, disowned by its neighbors, leaving its people with fewer opportunities"

any future conflict with gaza will naturally "draw in" the aspirations of palestinians even in the west bank---out of solidarity

ie, by excluding gaza obama merely exacerbates already overstrained tensions there which, almost inevitably, will involve the brotherhood on the bank, thus undoing any progress he hopes to make in his tripartite tete a tete with messieurs bebe and abbas

even more troubling: "obama has ignored the conflict [between hamas and the authority] entirely"

schanzer's conclusion: "obama has yet to answer these questions, with no apparent endgame in sight his peace talks may do more harm than good for the palestinian cause"

are you sure this guy knows what he's doing?
 
Last edited:
bowerbird said:
That whole war was a massive waste of money, time, resources and most of all lives. We should NEVER have gone there in the first place, when there we should have left rapidly, not stayed and stayed and stayed. Sadly the Iraqi people will be paying the price of this war for generations to come - meanwhile Haliburton and Co made millions.
Click to expand...

Of course they did, Dicksucker Cheney owns that company. He get rich while the rest of us get a destroyed economy and dead family members.
 
bowerbird said:
That whole war was a massive waste of money, time, resources and most of all lives. We should NEVER have gone there in the first place, when there we should have left rapidly, not stayed and stayed and stayed. Sadly the Iraqi people will be paying the price of this war for generations to come - meanwhile Haliburton and Co made millions.
Click to expand...

No need to say something twice -- quoted for large amounts of truth.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom