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Thread: Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

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    Re: Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    One question, how does receiving welfare keep you downtrodden?
    Normally it doesn't keep you downtrodden, but it does somewhat keep you dependent - especially to those who do not use welfare for it's intended purpose but use it more as a way of living. Welfare's intent was noble - temporarily help people when they are really down and need it so they can get back on their feet. Application and management however was lacking and still is. Fraud and abuse occur locally all the time. As you know, many abuse it and programs like welfare, food stamps, etc. not as a temporary fix but a long term lifestyle solution. However, welfare's stated purpose was / is narrow: Help someone for a short period of time until they get back on their feet. What would be better is not just giving money (and tracking that money) but putting these people to work where they can earn their pay. If not immediately, requiring job training and putting together programs that will enhance and allow not only menial / manual labor but higher paying jobs that provide opportunity to lift these people up economically. Just handing out money can pay the bills, it doesn't increase that person's job skills, doesn't increase their educational level, doesn't raise their abilities to find permanent work.

    I guess my question to you is, how does accepting welfare life a person up and out of being downtrodden?
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Normally it doesn't keep you downtrodden, but it does somewhat keep you dependent - especially to those who do not use welfare for it's intended purpose but use it more as a way of living. Welfare's intent was noble - temporarily help people when they are really down and need it so they can get back on their feet. Application and management however was lacking and still is. Fraud and abuse occur locally all the time. As you know, many abuse it and programs like welfare, food stamps, etc. not as a temporary fix but a long term lifestyle solution. However, welfare's stated purpose was / is narrow: Help someone for a short period of time until they get back on their feet. What would be better is not just giving money (and tracking that money) but putting these people to work where they can earn their pay. If not immediately, requiring job training and putting together programs that will enhance and allow not only menial / manual labor but higher paying jobs that provide opportunity to lift these people up economically. Just handing out money can pay the bills, it doesn't increase that person's job skills, doesn't increase their educational level, doesn't raise their abilities to find permanent work.

    I guess my question to you is, how does accepting welfare life a person up and out of being downtrodden?
    I think welfare needs to be reformed to better help people get work, and become self-sufficient. I would love for welfare to come with schooling, or work programs. Though the system we have now, is better than no system at all. Also not everyone on welfare is uneducated, or not willing to work, especially in these times, it may just be that they got laid off, and can't find more work. Not due to lack of effort, but lack of available jobs.

    Welfare doesn't keep one downtrodden, but it doesn't necessarily give someone a step up either. It just gives them the opportunity to not be homeless, and keep food on their table, for themselves, and their family, while they search for work. A search which is entirely up to them, and dependent on their skills.
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    Re: Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I'm going to laugh my ass off about this thread in November.
    Bookmarked.

    So are you prepared to retract your claim that "most of the tea party candidates lost in the primaries. "?
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    Re: Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    I think welfare needs to be reformed to better help people get work, and become self-sufficient. I would love for welfare to come with schooling, or work programs. Though the system we have now, is better than no system at all. Also not everyone on welfare is uneducated, or not willing to work, especially in these times, it may just be that they got laid off, and can't find more work. Not due to lack of effort, but lack of available jobs.

    Welfare doesn't keep one downtrodden, but it doesn't necessarily give someone a step up either. It just gives them the opportunity to not be homeless, and keep food on their table, for themselves, and their family, while they search for work. A search which is entirely up to them, and dependent on their skills.
    And that's the problem - welfare is doesn't provide anything but a chance to not be homeless... that's dependency. Keep getting a hand out to not be homeless... but no more. Welfare has existed since the 1930's and there's been ample opportunity for all involved to reform welfare over the past 80 years, yet it hasn't happened. If Democrats who claim to be for the working man and little guy actually wanted to lift people from being downtrodden - wouldn't they have reformed welfare so it is not a handout? The economics of Welfare are huge.

    Welfare Spending Chart in United States 1980-2015 - Federal State Local

    Change the chart to show 1980-2015. Welfare spending has a severe bend upwards into higher spending - $400+ Billion. Workfare was a Reagan program meant to show how to increase skills and self esteem with those who normally would receive welfare money only. That died as a solution, but was brought up by a Republican. So back to my point - it's not in Democrats best political interest to lift people out of their downtrodden ways. It's in their interest to keep people dependent and angry about Republicans, so Democrats can continue to get their votes.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    And that's the problem - welfare is doesn't provide anything but a chance to not be homeless... that's dependency. Keep getting a hand out to not be homeless... but no more. Welfare has existed since the 1930's and there's been ample opportunity for all involved to reform welfare over the past 80 years, yet it hasn't happened. If Democrats who claim to be for the working man and little guy actually wanted to lift people from being downtrodden - wouldn't they have reformed welfare so it is not a handout? The economics of Welfare are huge.

    Welfare Spending Chart in United States 1980-2015 - Federal State Local

    Change the chart to show 1980-2015. Welfare spending has a severe bend upwards into higher spending - $400+ Billion. Workfare was a Reagan program meant to show how to increase skills and self esteem with those who normally would receive welfare money only. That died as a solution, but was brought up by a Republican. So back to my point - it's not in Democrats best political interest to lift people out of their downtrodden ways. It's in their interest to keep people dependent and angry about Republicans, so Democrats can continue to get their votes.
    Suggesting that liberals support welfare to just get votes is ... offensive and shows a gross misunderstanding of our principals. While, I think there are wackos of the Al Sharpton variety who have such a victim mentality that they are shooting themselves in the foot for not supporting stuff that helps people be more self sufficient and satisfied with their life, to assume it is mainstream or even deliberate shows a sever lack of understanding or curiosity about other beliefs.

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    Re: Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Suggesting that liberals support welfare to just get votes is ... offensive and shows a gross misunderstanding of our principals. While, I think there are wackos of the Al Sharpton variety who have such a victim mentality that they are shooting themselves in the foot for not supporting stuff that helps people be more self sufficient and satisfied with their life, to assume it is mainstream or even deliberate shows a sever lack of understanding or curiosity about other beliefs.
    Sorry you're offended, but I'm sutre if you looked into the last 80 years of welfare and social programs and could push away the partisan nonsense - you'll see that the social programs are meant to keep people dependent, not improve their financial situation. You want to make a distinction between some and others - I'm identifying policy not individuals. Sharpton doesn't sign laws, pass laws and programs or lobby for them. I'm simply asking if the DNC policy and rhetoric is true, why have little to no changes in Welfare (as one example only) not changed and why was it that a Republican (Reagan) was the only one in the past 30 years that has tried to reform it?
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    So Fox news and Glen Wreck are once again proving they have an agenda and reporting news is secondary. No surprise there I guess.

    If I was black I would take offense by this political stunt.
    Oh that's a funny one. You are funny. Did you see that on Daily KOS or Democratic Underground? Anyway, I don't think you really know how you'd feel, if you were black. So you don't think any blacks will be at the event in support of it?
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    Re: Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Sorry you're offended, but I'm sutre if you looked into the last 80 years of welfare and social programs and could push away the partisan nonsense - you'll see that the social programs are meant to keep people dependent, not improve their financial situation.
    The sense ruling most of the time in the early welfare years was that people would work on their own to improve their situation if given a chance. I believe that idea has been shown to be naive. So I agree that some force must be applied, lest people become complacant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You want to make a distinction between some and others - I'm identifying policy not individuals. Sharpton doesn't sign laws, pass laws and programs or lobby for them. I'm simply asking if the DNC policy and rhetoric is true, why have little to no changes in Welfare (as one example only) not changed and why was it that a Republican (Reagan) was the only one in the past 30 years that has tried to reform it?
    Ultimately, you have to make a distinction, just as I don't believe that any ideological group is monolithic, neither are liberals. Would you like it if I thought every conservative was on the level of Erod or American? Going back to the naive believe, I think it is still somewhat there among some of the groups of liberals, who think they are either owed something or that people are inherently rational and will do good things for themselves without some outside force acting on them. I don't think either is true, but the myth is still there.

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    Re: Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    And that's the problem - welfare is doesn't provide anything but a chance to not be homeless... that's dependency. Keep getting a hand out to not be homeless... but no more. Welfare has existed since the 1930's and there's been ample opportunity for all involved to reform welfare over the past 80 years, yet it hasn't happened. If Democrats who claim to be for the working man and little guy actually wanted to lift people from being downtrodden - wouldn't they have reformed welfare so it is not a handout? The economics of Welfare are huge.

    Welfare Spending Chart in United States 1980-2015 - Federal State Local

    Change the chart to show 1980-2015. Welfare spending has a severe bend upwards into higher spending - $400+ Billion. Workfare was a Reagan program meant to show how to increase skills and self esteem with those who normally would receive welfare money only. That died as a solution, but was brought up by a Republican. So back to my point - it's not in Democrats best political interest to lift people out of their downtrodden ways. It's in their interest to keep people dependent and angry about Republicans, so Democrats can continue to get their votes.
    It's not really dependency, but a saving grace.
    Does that chart count for inflation, and cost of living increases? It's reasonable for welfare spending to increase when cost of living increases.
    I would love something like workfare to be implemented. An education, and work program would help people tremendously, it would help more people to become self-sufficient, and live a life of comfort, instead of survival. Education or experience are the most important factors in finding good, and stable jobs, but if one doesn't have either, it's going to be hard to find work. Having education, and work programs for people on welfare will give those people both of those, and increase their chances of finding jobs so that they can leave the welfare program.

    And for your theory, your assuming that people vote Democrat solely on the welfare program. I'm on food stamps, but I became a democrat long before we've had food stamps.
    Also to say that they support welfare to get votes is just absurd. I think they support welfare so that people, don't have to be homeless, or starve to death. Especially children, why should children have to pay for their parents mistakes?
    I could say that the Republicans want the poor children to starve because they want to cut welfare programs, but that would be the same type of hyperbole as you're suggesting.
    Last edited by Your Star; 08-26-10 at 01:57 PM.
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    Re: Glenn Beck rally will be a measure of the tea party's strength

    I just love this. On one hand you have the people that actually believe that Palin and Beck have answers and are doing something Positive for America. On the other hand you have the folks that feel those 2 dont have the answers and we should vote against both for liberals.
    And here I am looking at BOTH sides and depressed because America is going down the tubes. There is no 3rd Party. (Tea Party is Republican and dont let anyone tell you anything different)

    What the repubs did was genius. They make it LOOK like people are making a change with the Tea Party but all they are doing is putting in another republican.
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