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Stimulus Boosted Jobs in 2nd Quarter, CBO Says

And who ever said that? Or are you making **** up again?

What liberals complain about (and fiscal conservatives as well) is that the cost of the tax cuts were massive.

do you not read posts on this board-does the obvious escape you.

tax cuts COST NOTHING

a fundamental concept that is obvious to anyone who has a brain
 
do you not read posts on this board-does the obvious escape you.

One must wonder that about you.

tax cuts COST NOTHING

Not according to any economist out there worth their degree. Including economists for Reagan and both Bushes. No reputable economist will ever argue that tax cuts are revenue neutral.

Tax cuts do not pay for themselves. Never have. Never will.

Claim That Tax Cuts "Pay For Themselves" Is Too Good To Be True — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
Economist's View: The Myth That Tax Cuts Pay for Themselves

a fundamental concept that is obvious to anyone who has a brain

lol. Good luck with that fantasy. Your argument that a pareto efficiency frontier is a viable economic policy is beyond laughable.

So yes, the answer is yes , you are making **** up.

"And who ever said that? Or are you making **** up again? "

No answer from Turtledude.
 
a tax cut is not government spending

end of story
 
a tax cut is not government spending

end of story

In the same way that refusing to make a sale reduces profits. oh wait. That just costs you as you can no longer allocate money towards certain cost and now must allocate those costs to another product thereby reducing profit on that one as well and as a whole reducing total firm profit. How many times will you be proven wrong on this before you change your belief?

Inflow and outflow are the same coin. This isn't hard. It's only the end of the story if you are extremely dishonest and unwilling to actually discuss the subject like an adult.
 
ah a tax cut reduces the government's revenue which is different than it costing anything

Listen I tire of your sanctimonious nonsense and your arrogance of claiming I am not an adult etc. Why don't you just ignore me given you claim I am so inferior to you even though if we compared resumes I would happily bet a mint I'd win
 
ah a tax cut reduces the government's revenue which is different than it costing anything

FAIL. Way to completely ignore my example proving you are, as usual, wrong. Reducing revenue while costs remain the same is in fact a cost in the same fashion that refusing to sell a product means you no longer have the revenue to cover fixed costs.

Listen I tire of your sanctimonious nonsense and your arrogance of claiming I am not an adult etc. Why don't you just ignore me given you claim I am so inferior to you even though if we compared resumes I would happily bet a mint I'd win

Wrong. You tire of me constantly proving you are wrong. Oh joy. The lame "Look at my unprovable resume while ignoring my piss arguments!" is not a good venture.
 
FAIL. Way to completely ignore my example proving you are, as usual, wrong. Reducing revenue while costs remain the same is in fact a cost in the same fashion that refusing to sell a product means you no longer have the revenue to cover fixed costs.



Wrong. You tire of me constantly proving you are wrong. Oh joy. The lame "Look at my unprovable resume while ignoring my piss arguments!" is not a good venture.


Kinda looks like the bill is coming due, ten years later that was promised by the government in the early 2000,s, where Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security all without funding is coming back to bite people in the a**. Instead of funding, we got ourselves a couple of wars and the defense buildups that comes with wars. The coup de grace to our economy came with the tax cuts, instead of raising taxes to pay for all of that, they were cut.
 
Kinda looks like the bill is coming due, ten years later that was promised by the government in the early 2000,s, where Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security all without funding is coming back to bite people in the a**. Instead of funding, we got ourselves a couple of wars and the defense buildups that comes with wars. The coup de grace to our economy came with the tax cuts, instead of raising taxes to pay for all of that, they were cut.

how much additional tax revenue will make up for all the obama reckless spending and how do you dems propose getting that revenue?

if taxes are to be raised they need to be raised on those who aren't paying enough (and hence continue to vote for the spending)
 
Raising taxes doesn't mean it will increase government revenues, nor does it mean that any money raised will be spent wisely. If the past is any indication, it won't.

If raising taxes now is a good idea then raising them to 100% must be a great idea.

The Democrats borrowed billions from the Chinese and a few hours later they were hungry for billions more. They should continue to borrow money from the Chinese, spend it just as crazily as they've been doing, and then print a few tons of the stuff to pay them back. It will certainly teach those Commies a lesson or two about capitalism.
 
Raising taxes doesn't mean it will increase government revenues

You're missing a key word there. Raising taxes doesn't always mean it will increase government revenues.

nor does it mean that any money raised will be spent wisely. If the past is any indication, it won't.

That is correct.

If raising taxes now is a good idea then raising them to 100% must be a great idea.

Does hyperbole always taste good to you?

The Democrats two party system borrowed billions from the Chinese and a few hours later they were hungry for billions more. They should continue to borrow money from the Chinese, spend it just as crazily as they've been doing, and then print a few tons of the stuff to pay them back. It will certainly teach those Commies a lesson or two about capitalism.

Fixed.
 
how much additional tax revenue will make up for all the obama reckless spending and how do you dems propose getting that revenue?

if taxes are to be raised they need to be raised on those who aren't paying enough (and hence continue to vote for the spending)

Anytime the government spends without funding it is a tax. In this case the tax bill is coming (in part) ten years after the spending; quit whining and pay the friggen bill. :2wave:
 
I will keep that in mind when the Libs whine that the Bush Tax cuts did nothing to help the economy

Which is fine provided you also state that the Bush Tax cuts did increase the deficit.

Any and all government stimulus that requires government borrowing will reduce FUTURE economic growth in order to stimulate current economic growth. Bush engaged in Keynsian economic stimulus, so did Reagan and so has Obama
 
Raising taxes doesn't mean it will increase government revenues, nor does it mean that any money raised will be spent wisely. If the past is any indication, it won't.

If raising taxes now is a good idea then raising them to 100% must be a great idea.

The Democrats borrowed billions from the Chinese and a few hours later they were hungry for billions more. They should continue to borrow money from the Chinese, spend it just as crazily as they've been doing, and then print a few tons of the stuff to pay them back. It will certainly teach those Commies a lesson or two about capitalism.

Where have you been for the last few years? Under a rock, eating magic mushrooms?

Chinese holdings of US governmenmt debt skyrocketed under Bush and the Rebupilcans
 
do you not read posts on this board-does the obvious escape you.

tax cuts COST NOTHING

a fundamental concept that is obvious to anyone who has a brain

That is almost as idiotic as stating getting a massage increases your wealth

A tax cut without corresponding spending cuts, does not mean you have a cut in expenses. The spending still has to be accounted for. Just because it was put on the credit card does not mean it does not have to be paid back
 
Anytime the government spends without funding it is a tax. In this case the tax bill is coming (in part) ten years after the spending; quit whining and pay the friggen bill. :2wave:

uh I suspect I pay far more than you do-maybe its time you start paying as much as I do because chances are you use as much or more than I do
 
That is almost as idiotic as stating getting a massage increases your wealth

A tax cut without corresponding spending cuts, does not mean you have a cut in expenses. The spending still has to be accounted for. Just because it was put on the credit card does not mean it does not have to be paid back

so you are saying tax cuts are spending so anything less than a 100% tax is spending by the government or only when tax hikes bring in less revenue?

is saving your own money a cost?
 
so you are saying tax cuts are spending so anything less than a 100% tax is spending by the government or only when tax hikes bring in less revenue?

is saving your own money a cost?

Did you not see the part about corresponding spending cuts?

A tax cut without a spending cut is basically a defered tax. All government deficits have to be paid by taxes eventually
 
Did you not see the part about corresponding spending cuts?

A tax cut without a spending cut is basically a defered tax. All government deficits have to be paid by taxes eventually

do you think the dems are serious about cutting spending? one of the major reasons why I oppose the dem scheme to only hike taxes on those who already pay too much of the taxes is that it leads those not facing tax hikes to continue to demand more spending since they don't have to pay for it (at least not now)
 
uh I suspect I pay far more than you do-maybe its time you start paying as much as I do because chances are you use as much or more than I do

Consider the defense spending by the previous administration as a preemptive measure for any malcontents bent on stealing your trust fund.:mrgreen:
 
do you think the dems are serious about cutting spending? one of the major reasons why I oppose the dem scheme to only hike taxes on those who already pay too much of the taxes is that it leads those not facing tax hikes to continue to demand more spending since they don't have to pay for it (at least not now)

Gee the democrats are the one with a spending problem, I guess I should ignore what the Rebuplicans have done eh
 
Consider the defense spending by the previous administration as a preemptive measure for any malcontents bent on stealing your trust fund.:mrgreen:

I am perfectly able and willing to kill if I have to so I really don't see the army as being there to guard whatever funds you think I have and I have dealt with a couple robbers quite handily in the past

but here is the question-do you claim that unless the government does everything possible to wring as much taxes out of everyone as possible that is a cost to the government?

BBT its late in my neck of the woods
 
I am perfectly able and willing to kill if I have to so I really don't see the army as being there to guard whatever funds you think I have and I have dealt with a couple robbers quite handily in the past

but here is the question-do you claim that unless the government does everything possible to wring as much taxes out of everyone as possible that is a cost to the government?

BBT its late in my neck of the woods


Just asking the government to pay a ten year old bill, that it owes isn’t exactly wringing taxes out of out of everyone is it?
 
The US's GDP in 2009 was $14.256 trillion and the stimulus was $816 billion. Divide that in half as it was spread out over two years and we're talk $408 billion is about 2.9% of GDP. The CBO estimates between 1.5% and 4.1% (when you look at the best yearly benefit) for the positive effects of the stimulus. This means that the mid-point in their estimate is 2.8% which is slightly less than what was spent. Only if you go with the high estimate does the stimulus has a significant positive effect. So in that regard the CBO's report isn't really all that supportive for the stimulus as it was done, only if it was the more optimistic numbers can the stimulus be considered a significant good in terms of GDP.

I would like to note that the CBO is (understandably) focused on the short term and thus, for tax cuts, does not count saved money as an aid to the economy explaining its methodology thusly:

CBO report page 12 said:
If someone receives a dollar in transfer payments and spends 80 cents (saving the other 20 cents), production increases over time to meet the additional demand generated by that spending, and the direct impact on output is 80 cents.

Increased saving do not have an immediate and direct impact on GDP growth (its immediate impact is indirect by providing for cheaper lending and its direct impact, people spending savings, is deferred), so its understandable why the CBO would not measure the positive impacts of savings (not to mention doing so is harder), but this does lead to tax cuts looking less positive than actual spending. It is worth noting that the approach does lead to an inconsistency that you might notice reading further in the paragraph:

CBO report page 12 said:
Similarly, if a dollar in aid to a state government leads that government to spend 50 cents more on employees’ salaries (but causes no other changes in state spending or revenues, with the other 50 cents used to reduce borrowing or build up rainy-day funds), the direct impact on output is 50 cents.

The CBO is assuming that all the wage increased is used in spending rather than part of it being directed to savings like it does with tax cuts. That inconsistency again can cause spending to seem more positive than tax cuts.

Its also worth noting that on the low estimate for the effects of the different aspects of the stimulus, none of the parts of the stimulus (tax cuts or spending of any kind) exceeded 1 dollar gain in GDP for 1 dollar spent. This means, under pessimistic conditions, the anti-stimulus people are right and no part of the stimulus actually helped grow the economy over what was spent. This also means that the most likely situation is that the higher end things did have at least some positive effect.

So if you think the economy is in worse shape than what most people think, the CBO report is not actually inconsistent with the view that the stimulus did basically nothing. Average estimates would say the stimulus did nothing in terms of GDP growth as a whole though certain aspects of it may have done more (though do keep in mind the caveat I added in earlier about some inconsistency in methodology that might have made the spending seem better than it was, though with personal savings rates at about 5.5% currently the effect may not be huge, but its there). Optimists should be shouting the praises of the stimulus and the spending in particular (with criticism of most of the tax cuts).

I will say that the CBO report (with on or two caveats) is a pretty good summation I'd also not the complaint made about the uncertainty of the measurements needs to be put into context, here is that context:

CBO report pages 9-10 said:
During the second quarter of 2010, recipients reported, ARRA funded almost 750,000 full-time-equivalent (FTE) jobs.2 Those reports, however, do not provide a comprehensive estimate of the law’s impact on U.S. employment, which could be higher or lower than the number of FTE jobs reported, for several reasons (in addition to any issues concerning the quality of the reports’ data).3 First, some of the jobs included in the
reports might have existed even without the stimulus package, with employees working on the same activities or other activities. Second, the reports cover employers that received ARRA funding directly and those employers’ immediate subcontractors (the so-called primary and secondary recipients of ARRA funding) but not lower level subcontractors. Third, the reports do not attempt to measure the number of jobs that were created or retained indirectly as a result of recipients’ increased income, and the increased income of their employees, which could boost demand for other products and services as they spent their paychecks. Fourth, the recipients’ reports cover only certain ARRA appropriations, which encompass about one-fifth of the total either spent by the government or conveyed through tax reductions in ARRA during the second quarter; the reports do not measure the effects of other provisions of the stimulus package, such as tax cuts and transfer payments (including unemployment insurance payments) to individual people.

Estimating the law’s overall effects on employment requires a more comprehensive analysis than can be achieved by using the recipients’ reports. Therefore, looking at recorded spending to date along with estimates of the other effects of ARRA on spending and revenues, CBO has estimated the law’s impact on employment and economic output using evidence about the effects of previous similar policies and drawing on various mathematical models that represent the workings of the economy.

As you can see, the quotes Grim17 pulled were not referring to the CBO report but were in fact referring to the report put out by the Obama administration. The CBO's report mentions these short-comings not to state the limits of its own report (the limitations of its estimates on unemployment are encapsulated by the range it provides), but to state how the CBO report has avoided those pitfalls.
 
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