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Thread: China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

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    Re: China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Oh, give me a break. They have been saying this for a long time. I was living in Shanghai and I distinctly remember then sitting in a restaurant with friends of mine watching the premier talk about reform and how it was imminent. That was more than a decade ago.

    Words mean nothing. They say a lot, but do little. This is something they do. Their words make the press, those words make the West and others happy, but they don't actually follow through.
    They have been saying it and they have been doing it. I understand most skeptics have a hard time seeing political reform, but I could point to countless instances of reform over the years. However, the part from the article I didn't include in the OP was this:

    "People's democratic rights and legitimate rights must be guaranteed. People should be mobilized and organized to deal with, in accordance with the law, state, economic, social and cultural affairs," Wen added.

    Wen also wants to "create conditions" to allow the people to criticize and supervise the government as a way to address "the problem of over-concentration of power with ineffective supervision."
    This is a much more bold and comprehensive statement than I have read about planned political reform in the past. I also think the time is much more suited for such reform now.
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    Re: China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    They have been saying it and they have been doing it. I understand most skeptics have a hard time seeing political reform, but I could point to countless instances of reform over the years. However, the part from the article I didn't include in the OP was this:
    What reforms? China still has a disturbing lack of transparancy and human rights have DEGRADED in the past decade, NOT improved, and there is no movement forward on providing the people with democratic rights.

    This is a much more bold and comprehensive statement than I have read about planned political reform in the past. I also think the time is much more suited for such reform now.
    Actually, it looks very similar to what I saw when I lived in Shanghai in 1999 -- just a few months before the idiocy of China's response to the accidental bombing of the embassy in Yugoslavia and the horrendus crackdown on Falungong ... which is still ongoing...
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    Re: China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    People have been saying the same thing for 20 years... veteran China watchers like myself have grown rather cynical of these calls to reform, whether it be of the financial system, currency exchange rates, or process of government...
    That really depends on what you mean by reform. If you are referring to the opening up of the government/state/party to democracy then obviously this isn't going to happen any time soon. However, I do think that they are going to have to address the issue of capital allocation and domestic capital investment, particularly in the financial sector where the Chinese banking system has been incredibly inefficient in identifying viable investment opportunities. Especially with its easing of US T-bonds, it is going to not only pursue more diversified foreign investments (as it has been) but will also be required to invest more heavily domestically as the conditions in China continue to develop.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

    If these just aren't just empty words then I think we can all agree this is great news.

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    Re: China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    What reforms? China still has a disturbing lack of transparancy and human rights have DEGRADED in the past decade, NOT improved, and there is no movement forward on providing the people with democratic rights.
    What is this about? Sometimes I gotta wonder if some organization or government agency is disseminating a list of points for people to argue on these subjects. You're just spouting off the same trash put out by a dozen human rights groups irrespective of all reforms. It doesn't matter what reforms China implements they always say the same thing in their next report: "Human rights worsened in China over the past year." If that bull**** were actually legitimate China would look like one hell of a worse place than it is today.

    Are you just parroting that drivel or is there some other blatant propaganda you're getting this drivel from?

    Actually, it looks very similar to what I saw when I lived in Shanghai in 1999 -- just a few months before the idiocy of China's response to the accidental bombing of the embassy in Yugoslavia and the horrendus crackdown on Falungong ... which is still ongoing...
    I was thinking of that, which is partly why I said the conditions are more favorable towards such changes.
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    Re: China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    What is this about? Sometimes I gotta wonder if some organization or government agency is disseminating a list of points for people to argue on these subjects. You're just spouting off the same trash put out by a dozen human rights groups irrespective of all reforms. It doesn't matter what reforms China implements they always say the same thing in their next report: "Human rights worsened in China over the past year." If that bull**** were actually legitimate China would look like one hell of a worse place than it is today.

    Are you just parroting that drivel or is there some other blatant propaganda you're getting this drivel from?



    I was thinking of that, which is partly why I said the conditions are more favorable towards such changes.
    Where am I getting it from? People who live there or left there because of the government. I have lived there in the past and have seen it all before and can read and speak the language, so I don't have to rely on translations or deliberatly misleading English press releases to go on.

    Actually, you are the one who is spewing propoganda, the propoganda of the dictators in Beijing. You dismiss human rights organizations, but well respected groups like Amnesty International and Reporters without Borders (among many others) are reporting on what is going on in China. Large media outlets are often afraid to get in depth as to what is going on in there as they fear they will lose access. This isn't propoganda, THIS IS FACT.

    Now, you have nary made a post in here that doesn't defend or praise China. So, I have to ask you... are you Chinese? or are you one of the Useful Idiots the ChiCom government relies on to fool those who don't know any better about what is going on in there... because I DO know... you can't fool me...
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    Re: China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Where am I getting it from? People who live there or left there because of the government. I have lived there in the past and have seen it all before and can read and speak the language, so I don't have to rely on translations or deliberatly misleading English press releases to go on.
    Just because someone has lived there doesn't mean they have a better perspective, in fact I find the opposite is true more often than not. The closer a person feels to a country the more likely they are to be biased for or against.

    Actually, you are the one who is spewing propoganda, the propoganda of the dictators in Beijing.
    You said this before on another issue, when I only cited facts that can be found on countless unbiased sources.

    You dismiss human rights organizations, but well respected groups like Amnesty International and Reporters without Borders (among many others) are reporting on what is going on in China.
    I prefer to judge the reliability of an account based on its track record and the track record of these organizations with regards to China is awful to say the least. What I see is that in spite of reforms widely reported by foreign media based on actually informed experience in China where the effects of such reforms are apparent to them these groups continue insisting that things are actually getting worse. Ironically, their reports seem to basically look exactly the same every year citing no new change to laws or practices to the detriment of human rights or press freedom and seem to only reluctantly acknowledge progress.

    Also from reading news reports I have seen for myself the rising level of openness in reporting on serious human rights issues in China. Things that I wouldn't see mentioned years ago are being mentioned today. It seems countless people who have no blatant agenda against the Chinese government can see this as clear as day and yet the government's opponents continue saying it is actually getting worse.

    What it looks like to me is that China would have to carry out some huge change or reform for these groups to not claim things got worse that year.

    Large media outlets are often afraid to get in depth as to what is going on in there as they fear they will lose access.
    Really? Cause that is the exact opposite of my experience from reading Western news media. I find they tend to be more critical of China than is reasonable.

    Now, you have nary made a post in here that doesn't defend or praise China. So, I have to ask you... are you Chinese? or are you one of the Useful Idiots the ChiCom government relies on to fool those who don't know any better about what is going on in there... because I DO know... you can't fool me...
    That accusation has been levied against me in the past, primarily by the most hardline opponents of the Chinese government. I find it quite laughable, especially since you were just insisting that being from China gave you more credibility than me.
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    Re: China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

    I didn't say I was from China. I have lived there and have been there several times since. I have a pretty good idea what is going on in there, and it isn't pretty. If you wish to live in ignorance, that is your perogative. I have seen reports like these for TWENTY YEARS, and nothing substantive has yet happened... and in many ways over the last decade, they have gone backwards.

    I find it amusing that so many people use what is written in the english-language media as the authority on what is happening there. Their propoganda masters know what they are doing... and in your case, they seem to have been very successful...

    Next, I presume you are going to come and tell us that the entire South China Sea belongs to China... you have already fallen for their lies and propoganda about Taiwan.
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    Re: China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I have lived there and have been there several times since. I have a pretty good idea what is going on in there, and it isn't pretty. If you wish to live in ignorance, that is your perogative. I have seen reports like these for TWENTY YEARS, and nothing substantive has yet happened... and in many ways over the last decade, they have gone backwards.
    Honestly? Saying I live in ignorance is just absurd when you seem to be saying there hasn't any change in 20 years! Of course, I guess it really depends on what you mean by "substantive" because I think we may have a different definition of that. However, countless China observers who have been to China frequently over the years have frequently recognized that in every area China has had considerable progress over the years. So it seems the only people who think there hasn't been progress are those for whom acknowledging progress would in fact be contrary to their agenda.

    I find it amusing that so many people use what is written in the english-language media as the authority on what is happening there. Their propoganda masters know what they are doing... and in your case, they seem to have been very successful.
    Actually if their "propaganda masters" are really only allowing more openness in english-language media than they don't know what they're doing. English is taught to hundreds of millions of Chinese so if the intent is to deny the Chinese people access to this information by having it only in English than they are failing quite miserably. Your claim is completely illogical and really just a cop-out to allow you to continue insisting that there has been no reform. I cannot read Chinese therefore in order for me to challenge your claim I would have to first learn an entire language and go back over decades to read countless articles from Chinese news media. It is really an absurd demand meant primarily to make the standard of debate unreasonably high.

    I think the point I made is more effective, however. Since most Chinese students are being taught English being open more in the English media is not going to lock them out. Personally, I would believe the claim that English media is more open, but not the claim that somehow this is a deliberate tactic to trick foreigners or that it is happening without similar opening up in Chinese-language media.

    Seems opponents of the Chinese government have to resort to some of the most outlandish conspiracy theories to support their position.

    Next, I presume you are going to come and tell us that the entire South China Sea belongs to China... you have already fallen for their lies and propoganda about Taiwan.
    I didn't fall for any lies or propaganda about Taiwan. I looked up the relevant legal documents myself in places completely separate from any Chinese interest and reached my own conclusions. My conclusion was that Taiwan has no legal claim to independence.
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    Re: China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Honestly? Saying I live in ignorance is just absurd when you seem to be saying there hasn't any change in 20 years! Of course, I guess it really depends on what you mean by "substantive" because I think we may have a different definition of that.
    Most of the changes have been little more than window dressing. In many ways, China has moved backward, especially in regards to human rights. Ask practitioners of Falun Dafa as well as various Christian groups how they feel about the progression of human rights in China. It is also one of the world's largest (perhaps still the largest -- have to check) prison for journalists in the world. Yeah, nice progress. Ever heard of the People's Armed Police? Know what their primary purpose is?

    However, countless China observers who have been to China frequently over the years have frequently recognized that in every area China has had considerable progress over the years. So it seems the only people who think there hasn't been progress are those for whom acknowledging progress would in fact be contrary to their agenda.
    Those China watchers risk losing access to China if they are overly critical of China. There have been a number of China watchers who HAVE noted that the changes are little more than window dressing and that human rights is moving in the wrong direction. Many of them have lost access to the country as a result. They reward those who carry their message to the West. That has been going on since the 1930s!


    Actually if their "propaganda masters" are really only allowing more openness in english-language media than they don't know what they're doing. English is taught to hundreds of millions of Chinese so if the intent is to deny the Chinese people access to this information by having it only in English than they are failing quite miserably.
    You are missing the point. The message is meant to fool foreigners into thinking that there is real change going on in China. It is superficial at best. Few foreigners are conversant in spoken Mandarin and even fewer can read Chinese (either in the Simplified -- fake -- or Traditional -- real -- form).

    Your claim is completely illogical and really just a cop-out to allow you to continue insisting that there has been no reform. I cannot read Chinese therefore in order for me to challenge your claim I would have to first learn an entire language and go back over decades to read countless articles from Chinese news media. It is really an absurd demand meant primarily to make the standard of debate unreasonably high.
    And that is what the ChiCom government counts on and has for decades.

    I think the point I made is more effective, however. Since most Chinese students are being taught English being open more in the English media is not going to lock them out. Personally, I would believe the claim that English media is more open, but not the claim that somehow this is a deliberate tactic to trick foreigners or that it is happening without similar opening up in Chinese-language media.
    Except that they have been doing this for decades. I would see things in English language media sources in China that would not be found in Chinese.

    Seems opponents of the Chinese government have to resort to some of the most outlandish conspiracy theories to support their position.
    Except that DECADES of experience have borne out the claims of the critics. You should check out the book "China Misperceived" by Stephen Mosher.

    I didn't fall for any lies or propaganda about Taiwan. I looked up the relevant legal documents myself in places completely separate from any Chinese interest and reached my own conclusions. My conclusion was that Taiwan has no legal claim to independence.
    Except that you didn't show any citations and all but ignored the cases I cited (with links) in response. You were hardly convincing in that argument because your argument had no basis in international law. The fact is, the Kosovo advisory opinion even further strengthened Taiwan's case vis a vis China. If China were so confident it had a case, it would accept Taiwan's call for an ICJ ajudication.

    Now... have you fallen for their propoganda on the South China Sea as well?
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