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Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

Boo Radley said:
Close only counts in hand grenades and nuclear bombs. And I repeat, McVey was a Christian.
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That's a lie. McVeigh was agnostic. There is nothing you can find where he proclaims he was a Christian or anything he has done that would show he is a Christian. He said he was agnostic.
 
Redress said:
Zyphlin, the problem is not that every one is not reading what you posted, or not comprehending it. The problem is you are suing a tenuous chain of logic to support your position.
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Yes or no, the 9/11 attackers were inspired by, the methods acceptable becuase of, and the results justified based on the hijackers and their leaders religious beliefs?

Its a simple yes or no. Stating its a "yes" does not necessarily mean that you agree with my point concerning the mosque. But this notion that Islam had nothing to do with 9/11 that people on this forum are trying to present is absolute bull****.

You all trying to counter it with "OMG Christian did something bad for any reason = the same thing" is not a counter, nor accurate, as its not even what I'm stating.
 
Zyphlin said:
Yes or no, the 9/11 attackers were inspired by, the methods acceptable becuase of, and the results justified based on the hijackers and their leaders religious beliefs?

Its a simple yes or no. Stating its a "yes" does not necessarily mean that you agree with my point concerning the mosque. But this notion that Islam had nothing to do with 9/11 that people on this forum are trying to present is absolute bull****.

You all trying to counter it with "OMG Christian did something bad for any reason = the same thing" is not a counter, nor accurate, as its not even what I'm stating.
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And no one is saying that religion had nothing to do with it. However, if we allow that small bit into it, then we also have to allow that Christianity plays a part in our wars in the middle east. The truth is, Muslim's are not the enemy. The attack was not a Muslim attack. No one involved in the Mosque are impli8cated in the 9/11 attack. The anger is misplaced.
 
BDBoop said:
It is not a talking point. It is not a mosque. It IS an Islamic Cultural Center in question. What’s being proposed is a community center with meeting rooms, a swimming pool, a day care center and auditorium as well as space for religious services

The project was unanimously approved by the New York City board. WHY would they do that?? Seriously, stop and think. WHY would they unanimously approve it if it is what you all are believing it to be?
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They will not be offering religious services for any non-Muslim members of the community, they will be offering religious services to only Muslims, non-Muslims will be allowed entry the same as anyother Mosque so that they may receive Dawa.

Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

It's literally the textbook defintion of a Mosque.
 
Boo Radley said:
Did you ask the questions in a void, with no link to those builing the mosque?
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Yes, I did, as a means of proving the idiocy in suggesting that 9/11 isn't tied in at all to Islam.

If you did, they are pointless.
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No, it had a direct point. To counter the notion that Islam had nothing to do with connection to 9/11

They only work as a discussion point if you're linking the acts by the highjackers with Msulims and linking that to the peole building the mosque, as reason to be insulted.
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Exactly. That is what I'm doing. Islam was instrumental in the 9/11 attacks. As such, when combining "Muslim" and "9/11" it instills negative emotions into many people. By having a mosque whose entire purpose is to capitalize on 9/11 and its proximity to ground zero to try and perform whatever purpose its trying to perform, being so publicized and near it, that people visiting what is essentially in my mind a National Memorial are instantly being struck with those two triggers. I find doing so when its unneeded to be tactles and wrong. Moreso than that, I think doing so when you're trying to proclaim you're purpose is to "build bridges" makes ones true intentions EXTREMELY questionable.
 
Zyphlin said:
Yes or no, the 9/11 attackers were inspired by, the methods acceptable becuase of, and the results justified based on the hijackers and their leaders religious beliefs?

Its a simple yes or no. Stating its a "yes" does not necessarily mean that you agree with my point concerning the mosque. But this notion that Islam had nothing to do with 9/11 that people on this forum are trying to present is absolute bull****.

You all trying to counter it with "OMG Christian did something bad for any reason = the same thing" is not a counter, nor accurate, as its not even what I'm stating.
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I can't say I disagree with this. Was Islam a factor in the 9/11 attacks, no doubt. Was it the only factor, I don't think so. But Islam was used as a justification for the attacks, and the hijackers thought they were doing this for their god.
Is it okay to blame all muslims, or the religion of Islam itself, no. I think that's simplifying things too much. I'm not opposed to this mosque, to me building this mosque 2 blocks away from ground zero( or on ground zero, depends on your definition) is the same as building one in downtown Atlanta. I don't associate Islam with terrorism, I associate terrorism with assholes who need to be taken down.
 
j-mac said:
So I assume this egregious personal attack by you means you have nothing to contribute to the discussion? Yeah, didn't think so....buh bye now.


j-mac
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Don't throw rocks in glass house.

You jumped into this thread without a clue as to what you're talking about, regurgitating FOX talking points. How does that help?
 
Redress said:
And no one is saying that religion had nothing to do with it.
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Here was the post I responded to, and the specific line:

Boo Radley said:
I wouldn't say it does. There is still a real ingorance to the protesting. The building isn't on ground zero, Muslims didn't perpetrate 9/11 (al Qaeda did), and no evidence presented has shown any rational reason for the protesting. There is no more reason to even consider Muslims as an insult than there is to consider the Klan represents all Christians.
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This is suggesting that religion had nothing to do with it, it was just a terrorist group, and therefore its ridiculous for people to be bothered by any connection to that religion to 9/11.

I was showing that the issue was not that they were Muslims, but it was the fact their faith specifically was instrumental in what occured. There is a large difference in saying "Some muslim killed a guy" and the reasons for the killing was because the guy beat up and raped his girlfriend and the Muslim guy walked in on it and a fit of rage killed him and saying "Some Muslim killed a guy" and he did so because he viewed him as an infidel and his religion told him to slay the man.

I was clarifying that peoples issue are not necessarily that "OMG they were muslims". It was the fact of how directly the religion itself impacted those attacks.

However, if we allow that small bit into it, then we also have to allow that Christianity plays a part in our wars in the middle east.
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Oh? Care to explain how.

Further, care to compare the levels of the religious justification, motivation, and methods between the two?

The truth is, Muslim's are not the enemy.
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Also the sky is blue, pizza is awesome, and 300 was a rad movie. Shall we say any other things that the two of us haven't been disagreeing about?

The attack was not a Muslim attack.
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Correct, it was a terrorist attack motivated, justified, and performed in ways inspired by their and their leaders Islamic faith.

No one involved in the Mosque are impli8cated in the 9/11 attack. The anger is misplaced.
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Oh, my anger at the mosque is not concerning their implication in 9/11. My anger at the mosque is in their obvious douchebaggery and tactlessness and/or blatant and obvious lies.
 
Zyphlin said:
Yes or no, the 9/11 attackers were inspired by, the methods acceptable becuase of, and the results justified based on the hijackers and their leaders religious beliefs?
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No.

Like Bush said, Al Qaeda is a twisted version of Islam.

What the hijackers did has nothing to do with the mainstream practice of Islam.

Had enough?

Are we done?
 
Zyphlin, I think you are reading too much into his words. I take another meaning from his words, which is that it was not Muslims who attacked on 9/11, but Al Queda, who happened to be Muslim.
 
Your Star said:
I can't say I disagree with this. Was Islam a factor in the 9/11 attacks, no doubt. Was it the only factor, I don't think so. But Islam was used as a justification for the attacks, and the hijackers thought they were doing this for their god.
Is it okay to blame all muslims, or the religion of Islam itself, no. I think that's simplifying things too much. I'm not opposed to this mosque, to me building this mosque 2 blocks away from ground zero( or on ground zero, depends on your definition) is the same as building one in downtown Atlanta. I don't associate Islam with terrorism, I associate terrorism with assholes who need to be taken down.
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Look everyone, someone that actually gets what I'm saying, DISAGREES WITH MY END POSITION, and yet still is able to honestly discuss what I stated.

Thank you YouStar.

And I agree, its ridiculous to blame all Muslims for 9/11. Its ridiculous to think "The muslims are the enemy". And I think its even ridiculous to suggest a law must be made to keep them from placing a "mosque of conquest" or whatever other such hyperbole people are trying to place on this.

However, I also think its ridiculous to build a mosque in such a place that's OBVIOUSLY going to needlessly inflame people if your purpose is to "build bridges". I think its ridiculous to attempt to capitalize on 9/11 and use it as a giant club to beat over the head of people visiting said location that they must be tolerant and understanding towards a religion that was instrumental in the attacks.

Do I think that message in general...that we should be tolerant of Islam, more understanding, and realize that not all muslims are terrorist...a good one? ABSOLUTELY! But I think that it does that message a disservice to try and force it on people and club them over the head with it through the use of 9/11 itself. I think its disrespectful, tactless, and insulting. I think it shouldn't have been there, and I applaud the Mayor for offering tem up other land, and I support those that protest it. And I would oppose any law that attempted to forbid them from going forward with it.
 
hazlnut said:
No.

Like Bush said, Al Qaeda is a twisted version of Islam.

What the hijackers did has nothing to do with the mainstream practice of Islam.

Had enough?

Are we done?
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Where did I say "mainstream" Islam. Fundamentalist Christianity isn't "mainstream" christianity, its still Christianity. Al Quada follows an extremely fundamentalist version of Islam and uses it to justify extremely twisted things. That doesn't magically make it not Islam.
 
Redress said:
Zyphlin, I think you are reading too much into his words. I take another meaning from his words, which is that it was not Muslims who attacked on 9/11, but Al Queda, who happened to be Muslim.
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And what I'm saying is whether or not they are "muslims" is irrelevant in the situation to me and I dare say many others. What's relevant to me is their use of Islam to motivate, create, execute, and justify the attack. Its not their designation of their religion, it is the use of their religion.
 
Your Star said:
I can't say I disagree with this. Was Islam a factor in the 9/11 attacks, no doubt.
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A twisted version of Islam (like Bush said) that has nothing to do with the mainstream practice of Islam or the Imam behind the Cultural Center.

Al Qaeda is to Islam as the Klan is Christianity or the Spanish Inquisition is to Catholicism.

Hell, the anti-gay stance and creationism is a 'twisted' version of Christianity -- where scripture is interpreted without historical context.
 
Zyphlin said:
And what I'm saying is whether or not they are "muslims" is irrelevant in the situation to me and I dare say many others. What's relevant to me is their use of Islam to motivate, create, execute, and justify the attack. Its not their designation of their religion, it is the use of their religion.
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But people use all religions in just this manner(and opens up the KKK and abortion clinic bombing comparisons). It is also not the fault of the religion, nor of those who do not use the religion in this manner. Which is, again, why I say the anger is misplaced.
 
I don't know if religions can really be blamed for the actions of man. Religions are just abstract ideals and stories made up by people. The use of religions is totally up to the individual themselves. Religions do not act, religions cannot act; only man acts. Any given religion can be made violent and any given religion can be made peaceful. It's all how the individual chooses to act. If not religion, we'll come up with other excuses for our actions; it's not like religion is unique in this charge.
 
Redress said:
But people use all religions in just this manner(and opens up the KKK and abortion clinic bombing comparisons).
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And did you not read where I said if something happened for similar reasons on a similar scale with the KKK and it was likely people would react similarly to the building of a church in said area that I'd find it incredibly tactless and douchy to build a church there whose purpose is to use said attacks as a springboard for "building bridges"?

Go ahead and make the comparisons. The threats of doing so aren't some bogeyman that's going to scare me off my belief because unlike the assumption people keep making, my belief isn't based on some hatred for Islam or Muslims.

It is also not the fault of the religion, nor of those who do not use the religion in this manner.
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Absolutely true.

Which is, again, why I say the anger is misplaced.
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Which again, i say it isn't. You don't build something somewhere that is obviously going to inflame people and then say "I'm building to build bridges" when the people you need to build bridges too are the very people you're pissing the **** off every step of the way and are actually just FURTHER widening the gap from.
 
hazlnut said:
A twisted version of Islam (like Bush said)
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There is no "twisted version of Islam." There is no "radical Islam" vs. "moderate Islam." That is a fiction, and it's protective Islamic propaganda.

OnlyOneIslam-N-Dominate.jpg
 
Zyphlin said:
Where did I say "mainstream" Islam. Fundamentalist Christianity isn't "mainstream" christianity, its still Christianity.
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I totally disagree. The minute a fundamentalist shoots a doctor, bombs a clinic, or bashes a gay person, then he ceases to be a true Christian.

That's the point. -- Calling yourself Christian and actually acting like one are two different things.

Al Qeada may read the Koran, but they do not represent Islam.

Al Quada follows an extremely fundamentalist version of Islam and uses it to justify extremely twisted things. That doesn't magically make it not Islam.
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Um... if they're misinterpreting the Koran, twisting it for their own political hateful purposes, then yeah it sort of does. Not magically, but logically.
 
Zyphlin said:
Yes, I did, as a means of proving the idiocy in suggesting that 9/11 isn't tied in at all to Islam.



No, it had a direct point. To counter the notion that Islam had nothing to do with connection to 9/11



Exactly. That is what I'm doing. Islam was instrumental in the 9/11 attacks. As such, when combining "Muslim" and "9/11" it instills negative emotions into many people. By having a mosque whose entire purpose is to capitalize on 9/11 and its proximity to ground zero to try and perform whatever purpose its trying to perform, being so publicized and near it, that people visiting what is essentially in my mind a National Memorial are instantly being struck with those two triggers. I find doing so when its unneeded to be tactles and wrong. Moreso than that, I think doing so when you're trying to proclaim you're purpose is to "build bridges" makes ones true intentions EXTREMELY questionable.
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It isn't tied to 9/11 any more than McVey and Okl. City is to Christianity. So, I had your logic accurately pegged, and have shown it flawed. There is nomore insult to building a mosque than to build a Christina Church in OKl. City. None.
 
That's a ridiculous notion.

You're telling me that a 3rd generation Muslim living in America and someone born and raised in Saudi Arabia by highly religious parents are going to have exactly the same views with regards to what their holy books mean and imply and the interpritation of its rules and edicts?
 
Rezonator said:
There is no "twisted version of Islam." There is no "radical Islam" vs. "moderate Islam." That is a fiction, and it's protective Islamic propaganda.

OnlyOneIslam-N-Dominate.jpg
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Great, more fringe-rigties.

DP takes a -1 hit to critical thought.
 
Ikari said:
Not a personal attack. I'm asking, WTF business is it of yours and WTF can you legally and justly do about it? Other than crying about a mosque in your oatmeal. Can you answer the question or can we just assume that you have nothing but feigned outrage at some mosque? Yeah, thought so.
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Ok tough guy....First off

WTF Business is it of yours?
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it is my business because I live in the freest country on Earth, and have a right to declare my opinion, and discuss anything I wish to discuss. Your little snarky fascist comments aside.

WTF can you legally and justly do about it?
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Love the progressive bent in your question here Ikari. As if the Mosque of conquest that you so love were to bow to public pressure and move, that would be 'un' just. What a load. I have the right to speak out against it and lobby my politicians to put pressure on them to move it, or pursue any legal ways to block it. That is America buddy. if you don't like it well, you know what to do.

You have a very "french" definition of personal attack buddy. I asked ya some questions; questions which are pertinent to the discussion.
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Ooooh I am so hurt. I just internet tough guy's. Listen, when you have an argument based in some sort of civil tone, then maybe we can get somewhere, until then all I see is a kid in mom's basement with a puffed out chest because you can type....

Since when do we require any religious building to host other religions?
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We don't, and were it not for the absurd claim of Imam Rauf that he is building it as some sort of outreach. It is not.

Since when do we limit what they can talk about?
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In this country there are walls between religion and political speech from the pulpit, although you really wouldn't be able to tell considering the last election cycle, but they are there, a church can lose tax status if they cross the line.

That's it. Do you actually have answers for this or is all we're going to get is "Oh noes...a mosque...Sharia law.....sky...falling..."
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Me thinks you are emulating a bit too much hazelnut.

j-mac
 
hazlnut said:
I totally disagree. The minute a fundamentalist shoots a doctor, bombs a clinic, or bashes a gay person, then he ceases to be a true Christian.
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He may st op being a true Christian in your eyes, but that doesn't stop the act from being motivated by Christianity. He may've acted outside of what a Christian should, but his motivation was still Christianiaty.

That's the point. -- Calling yourself Christian and actually acting like one are two different things.
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That's wonderful. Let me say it for like the 10th time. The fact they consider themselves muslism is irrelevant to my point.

Al Qeada may read the Koran, but they do not represent Islam.
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I never said they represent Islam. But they absolutely use Islam as the basis for much of their thoughts and actions, even if its a crazy interpritation of it.
 
Zyphlin said:
And did you not read where I said if something happened for similar reasons on a similar scale with the KKK and it was likely people would react similarly to the building of a church in said area that I'd find it incredibly tactless and douchy to build a church there whose purpose is to use said attacks as a springboard for "building bridges"?

Go ahead and make the comparisons. The threats of doing so aren't some bogeyman that's going to scare me off my belief because unlike the assumption people keep making, my belief isn't based on some hatred for Islam or Muslims.



Absolutely true.



Which again, i say it isn't. You don't build something somewhere that is obviously going to inflame people and then say "I'm building to build bridges" when the people you need to build bridges too are the very people you're pissing the **** off every step of the way and are actually just FURTHER widening the gap from.
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But those being "inflamed" are being "inflamed" for illogical and entirely personal reasons. I tend to see this argument as very much a case of PC gone wild. I am not saying the anger is not real, but the people building this "mosque" are not terrorists, are not responsible for 9/11, the religion is not guilty for 9/11. I cannot stop people from being "inflamed", but I would not other people's let irrational emotion effect my decisions.
 
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