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Thread: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

  1. #241
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No race card. Just wondering why you assumed that I'm white. Is it because I don't think like a black person? I'm not offended; just curious. And, calling you out for your silly little, "you be uh racist", tirade.

    Libs on this forum requently assume I'm white. Just wondering what makes you people tick.
    I don't play "guess what race I am". I just assumed you were a jerk, based on your posts. And everybody knows those come in every race, religion and creed on the planet.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    So, follow the majority rule unquestioningly regardless of how right or wrong they are, right?

    This is why we are not a flat out democracy, but a constitutional republic ruled by citizen votes and a CONSTITUTION. Because the MAJORITY is NOT ALWAYS RIGHT.
    And this is why the Wellstone Memorial service was a lead balloon. You just don't understand right v wrong.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No race card. Just wondering why you assumed that I'm white. Is it because I don't think like a black person? I'm not offended; just curious. And, calling you out for your silly little, "you be uh racist", tirade.

    Libs on this forum requently assume I'm white. Just wondering what makes you people tick.
    Of course you're white. You are Conservative...you talk the conservative talk.....yep.....You're defininitly an old white racist dude. :-)

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Define "defending the attack".
    He basically said that 9/11 was blowback, which is something most sane people agree upon. Of course to someone like apdst this means that you're defending terrorism...

    Us rational people can read Mr. Rauf's comments on 9/11 and terrorism in general and understand exactly what he is saying. For example:

    Faisal: Fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam. That's just as absurd as associating Hitler with Christianity, or David Koresh with Christianity. There are always people who will do peculiar things, and think that they are doing things in the name of their religion. But the Koran is... God says in the Koran that they think that they are doing right, but they are doing wrong.

    http://www.islamfortoday.com/60minutes.htm
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 08-24-10 at 01:44 AM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    So, follow the majority rule unquestioningly regardless of how right or wrong they are, right?

    This is why we are not a flat out democracy, but a constitutional republic ruled by citizen votes and a CONSTITUTION. Because the MAJORITY is NOT ALWAYS RIGHT.
    And this is why the Wellstone Memorial service was a lead balloon. You just don't understand right v wrong.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Perhaps you should educate your own self and learn how to tell the difference between a request and an order. A request doesn't always end with a "?".
    If that was a request, it was a very rude one. My mamma would have slapped me silly if I spoke to someone like that and then tried to pretend it was a request. I was raised to have manners and to take personal responsibility when I ****ed up, though.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Deciding not to get maried on Sept. 11th isn't the same thing as being significantly affected. That's being minimally affected. That's not wanting your anniversary darte to be 9/11.
    I disagree. If the memories of that day still didn't affect you in some tangible way it'd not matter...hell, it wouldn't even register.

    The fact it still registers, the fact that it still engenders such emotion in people, the fact that it is still thought about, the fact people still actively go to visit the site it happened a decade later places it as still affecting people.

    YOU don't feel it reaches a level that the affect is worth while. Great, that's your opinion, you're free to have it. Mine is that it does. However are you seriously going to dispute that 9/11 doesn't affect more people, even in a minimal way, ten years later than a drunk driver car crash killing 5 people in a town?

    Let's be honest. It's pretty much a non-factor in most people's lives. We even done forgot to get the guy involved and nobody seems to give a ****. 9 years later and bin laden is not even talked about. Instead we're distracted with a buiunch of NONSENSe about a mosque being built a couple blocks away. It's all a load of horse****.
    The death of a father can be a non-issue in the day to day going ons of a persons life 10 years after the fact. That doesn't mean it still isn't a significant emotional moment that continues to have an affect on you and can instantly be recalled to your mind by random stimuli far easier than less affecting events.

    And seriously, don't give me this bull**** that if people pay attention to one issue it excludes them from possibly worrying about another one. OMG tuck, you're talking about the Mosque, that must mean you don't give a **** about any other issue at all!

    When you said "No, its associating a religion with the actions of a group of violent extremists in the NAME OF THAT RELIGION"
    How is me saying that terrorists did actions in the name of Islam equaling me saying THIS Mosque represents terrorist values. Is there some kind of strange English translation I"m not hearing?

    This mosque and its leaders follow Islam and use it to guide many of their actions.

    The Islamic terrorists of 9/11 followed Islam and use it to guide many of their actions.

    The fact that I state things that are facts doesn't dictate that because its advantageous for your argument that I am saying that since both follow in name the same religion for their inspiration that those two things must be identical.

    Actually, I'd say the anger was about the meddling and that Islam has used as a means to control the "soldiers", much like religion hass been used by peopel to gain fanatical "soldiers" for centuries.
    And once again, well and good that its your opinion. I have a different opinion. I'm sure yours is based on what the people have said, mine is based on that too. Whether or not we take them for their word or not. Personally, I think it is a mixture between individuals seeking power and having a tool and also individuals who are truly zealotous. Regardless, the fact the religion is manipulated as a tool doesn't magically remove it from the equation. A hammer is a tool, however I'm not going to say I nailed an entire house together and when you asked me what allowed for me to be able to let myself do that I'm going to shrug my shoulders because suddenly something that is used as a tool can't be named.

    Yes, Islam was used as a leverage point for getting people angry and justifying their anger towards the rest. The fact it was a tool doesn't make their hatred and anger any less rooted or tied to their religious beliefs.

    And I disagree. I think that we have become very predjudicial against Islam in this country and that as of late this is becoming more and more acceptable to the point where open distaste is viewed as acceptable. I think we feed into the terrorists hands when we openly blame all of Islam for 9/11. Tehy point their fingers and say "We rtold you, they hate Islam, not terror".
    I think we have too, and I think the location of this mosque simply furthers that damage not helps it. And spare me if I give a **** about "open distaste" being shown about a religion. I know of not a SINGLE solitary major religion in this country that is not routinely and regularly shown "open distaste".

    Also, are you seriously suggesting that its only because of us pointing out that Islam played a hand in 9/11 that they have propoganda? That somehow if we never made mention of Islam the terrorists would magically be distraught and confused, unable to figure out how to use our words or actions in any way to spin it. That they wouldn't instead say "See! They are to afraid of the might of Islam to even mention our holy cause, trying to belittle it as simply an endeavor of man rather than a holy duty!"

    And its all because a few peopel choose hyperbole over reason.
    Such as suggesting anyone that dares thinks the mosque shouldn't be here is a bigoted hatemonger xenophobe that despises Islam?

    Yes, hyperbole doesn't help the situation...however its hardly at play on a single side.

    There will be no real damage done from the mosque existing 2 blocks from ground zero.
    Depends how you wish to define real damage.

    That said, guessing what your definition might be, it'd likely be equally plausible to say there'd be no real damage done from the mosque existing elsewhere in the city.

    However, personally, I think the fact this many people are upset about it to the point that the mayor is offering land to the individuals to build it elsewhere speaks a bit to the emotional harm its doing. That's fine if you don't truly think it matters, or is of a level that is worth while, but then similarly the only "harm" you could find in moving it is its them doing something they don't have to do which is frankly not much "harm" either.

    Islam was the tool used by people who want power. It is no more to blame for the actions of those who invoke its name than Christianity is to blame for the Crusades.
    Actually, I think its very comparable to the Crusades.

    Christianity wasn't to blame for the Crusades.

    Christianity was definitely unquestionably tied up in the motivation, justification, methodology, and promotion of the Crusades and is unquestionably identifiable with it.

    People will use whatever excuse they can for their bad behavior if they want to. If they can distort a bunch of religious beliefs, even better, because nothing gets someone to be more willing to die for your cause than if you convince them that they'll go to heaven by doing so.
    Indeed. Doesn't change the fact that Islam is directly tied to 9/11.

    It wasn't an advertising campaign. It was what people said.
    Then all the more that it is irrelevant of a comparison. A mosque is actively preaching Islam. A McDonalds isn't actively preaching democracy.

    You said "I've never heard anyone go "Look! McDonalds, what a shining symbol of American Democracy, what wonderous and magnificant site showing the true pillars of democracy"." just becuase you haven't heard it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
    Indeed, you have corrected me. I had not heard of it, you provided and example, that's how discussions go. I was wrong, people have said it as such in the past. While I've never seen or heard it occur myself, I see that it has happened. See the rest of my comments in regards to my thoughts.

    Of course you will. There are websites that are 100% dedicated to demonizing Islam as the cause of terrorism. Mcdonald's is a symbol of democracy.
    That's still not showing an example of them directly pushing, advocating, or preaching Democracy from McDonalds.

    It was used in the cold war. Look up how McDonald's insinuated itself in the economy of the USSR and actively spread capitalistic seeds in that communist country.
    Capitalism != Democracy

    Russia was used as an example to show that mcdonald's is a symbol of democracy, much like an Islamic community center/mosque is a symbol of Islam.
    Except for McDonalds doesn't actively, themselves, advocate Democracy. You even said, it was the PEOPLE proclaiming the "taste of freedom", not McDonalds employees going out and going "Everyone should have a right to vote! The people should have the power!"

    A mosque/community center however is directly proclaiming and promoting Islam.

    But since you said that the requirement for your opposition would be if it was opened in a region where "the majority of the people have been oppressed and feel that opening said McDonalds is hurtful and disrespectful", please explain how the majority of people in the US have been "oppressed" by Islam and how this community center/mosque affects that oppresion.
    I was trying to work in line with your analogy, which was "democracy" for "Islam" but has been completely and utterly disjointed and backwards (backwards by your own admission) this entire time so was difficult to really grab a decent parallel. Perhaps giving it a bit more thought a better scenario would be...

    If the majority of people in that area had had some kind of horrible disaster occur to them in the "name of Democracy" (lets say a U.S. missile hit a building and killing thousands in the process) and as such the majority of people in that area did not want this "sign of democracy" near by due to the memories and emotions it causes, then I'd say its tactless as well to shove it down their throats while proclaiming its being built to "build bridges to democracy" and to teach people to be tolerant to Democracy despite what's Democracy helped inspire people to do just down the road at the place you may well be heading to.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    He basically said that 9/11 was blowback, which is something most sane people agree upon. Of course to someone like apdst this means that you're defending terrorism...

    Us rational people can read Mr. Rauf's comments on 9/11 and terrorism in general and understand exactly what he is saying. For example:
    No sane person agrees with that.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Double post for some reason.
    Last edited by stealthy; 08-24-10 at 01:53 AM.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    So if mosques are directly related to Islam and Islam is directly related to 9/11, is there a duality to Islam that creates a barrier to mosques being directly related to 9/11?
    Plants are directly related to oxygen.

    Soil is directly related to Plants.

    Therefore soil must be directly related to oxygen!

    The mosque was not responsible for 9/11. It had no hand in 9/11. It is not to blame for 9/11. Islam itself is not to blame for 9/11, is not responsible for it.

    Islam was a tool used to recruit for, justify, and enact 9/11. Its unquestionably a part of the history of 9/11 just as Christianity is unquestionably a part of the history of the Crusades. That doesn't mean Islam is to blame. But simply not being to blame doesn't change the fact that in relation to 9/11 it has an incredibly negative connotation.

    You can't attach and detach things to Islam for convenience sake. Islam isn't Mr. Potato Head.
    Exactly, you can't magically make 9/11 an event that had nothing to do with Islam.

    Those people won't have to pass by the Muslim community center when visiting Ground Zero. It's like New York City turned into San Francisco in the last couple months. In December 2009 no one had a problem with it. Now that election season is upon us once again people's feelings are hurt? In New York? The city were "What the **** is your problem?" is often a child's first words?
    Yes, silly me. Let me be sure to research the going ons of every city in America to be sure I form my opinions appropriately early enough that IT feels its adequate.

    You wish to question the timing that this became an issue. Fine, legitimate thing to question. But don't act shocked that something actually becomes national news and people take more notice to it. If you want to bitch at people for that may as well bitch at people for brushing their teeth and sleeping in a bed, cause its essentially an every day occurrence for the vast majority of Americans.

    Or are you saying everything you've ever talked about on this forum you brought up, researched, and had views and thoughts on long before it ever hit a main stream media source?

    If a liberal took this stance it would be "political correctness run amok". I'm sorry that Al Qaeda doesn't have a capital, a uniform, a flag, or other face discernable from the rest of Islam, but Islam is not the face of terrorism. If people can't think beyond generalizations there is no reaching them.
    I'm sure some foolish people would make that comment. But are you talking to me or are you just using my point to spring board your lambasts at others? Are you suggesting I would be making that claim if a liberal took the stance?

    Nope, Islam isn't the face of terrorism. Glad you got to beat that strawman once more.

    Hold on here Zyphlin. "Allowing for the methods that were used"? This certainly sounds like you are saying that the 9/11 attacks were sanctioned by Islam.
    Nope. The fact these individuals were willing to kill themselves in the midst of the attack was at least partially based on their religious belief that being a martyr would be a blessed act that would be smiled upon by their lord and they'd be rewarded for it in the afterlife.

    I don't think we should enable people's ignorance. Just because people don't understand the reality doesn't mean that they should be bargained with or capitulated to.
    So we shouldn't enable peoples ignorance....by lying through omission by never ever ever suggesting that islam is in any way shape or form tied to 9/11 because some people can't understand the reality that simply because it was tied to 9/11 doesn't mean all muslims are terrorists?

    Or is the disgust for enabling peoples ignorance because some people don't understand reality only apply when it suits your needs?

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