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Thread: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

  1. #121
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually no, in his scenario he did not say any catholics specifically molested kids at that chuck-e-cheese.

    For it to be equivilent to what you're saying I'd have to be saying you shouldn't build mosques ANYWHERE in the U.S. because muslims attacked the U.S. at some point. I'm not making that argument.
    No, I don't think so. If you are offended by catholics building nearly anywhere specific, then you are in fact relatig all catholics to that evil, making all guilty for it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    He actually grew up Catholic and stated in an interview that he kept his core childhood beliefs. You check wikipedia for that. thy also mention the agonstic article.
    All I saw was that his parents were Irish Catholics who divorced when he was 10. No mention of any of them actually going to church or practicing their faith.
    It seems he was a gun nut from an early age and anti-government. What put him over the edge was the way Waco was handled. I can find no connection between religion and the bombing.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    All I saw was that his parents were Irish Catholics who divorced when he was 10. No mention of any of them actually going to church or practicing their faith.
    It seems he was a gun nut from an early age and anti-government. What put him over the edge was the way Waco was handled. I can find no connection between religion and the bombing.

    Well, I relooked it up for you:

    In a recorded interview with Time magazine[80] McVeigh professed his belief in "a god", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."

    Timothy McVeigh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I remember someone getting all bent out of shape once when I used the "fascist" line. But regardless, that is not an argument for being your business. You can say what you want, talk about what you want; even stuff that ain't none of your business. It's true, being a busybody ain't against the law. But I wanted to know what business it was of yours. Is it your religion? Are you going to this place? Are your rights negatively effected by this planned mosque? What is it in any of this that is YOUR business. Let's have an honest answer this time; not some free speech deflect. I am not arguing that you can't say anything about it. I just think that you're sticking your nose in other people's beeswax. Why is this mosque your business. Tell me the negative side effect towards your rights and liberties that makes this your business. Not some "I can be a busybody if I want" argument; no one is arguing that you can't. I want to know why it's your business. Can you honestly answer the question? Or is all you have pointless, useless, and worthless bitching?
    Wait a minute...What the..? Sticking my nose in their business? How so? By trying to discuss it, and offer my opinion? Sure you don't like my opinion, I could care less. But to think that just because I am speaking out that they should move their Mosque, and not that they shouldn't build, mind you, but that I find it offensive that they are giving one reason for building it, in the face of offending the very people that they want to out reach to is now 'none of my business'? Allow me to apply your own logic Ikari, WTF business is it of yours to presume that I don't have anything to say about this subject on an open forum in the US, on the internet? you think only your take on things should be listened to? What kind of arrogance drives you to presume to tell me what I can or can not comment on? So why not just drop all the bluster, and BS and realize that there are some people offended by this mosque, and they have the right to speak out against it.

    is it just bitching? Well, I certainly don't have to lay out my family tree for you pal. For all you know I lost a family member at WTC. To make your rude, and crass assumptions about another member posting here is just amazing, and something I don't think you'd have the balls to do face to face.

    No one said you couldn't bitch. But you wanted to complain about personal insults or some other BS like that when I asked if you had legitimate reason and legitimate course or if all you have is endless crying. So the second part of this question again isn't a "can you bitch about X", you can bitch about anything you want. The second part of the question is about legitimate course. Is there anything you can justly do about this mosque? Again, you didn't answer the question, you tried to deflect along the free speech route. So I ask again, what can you legitimately and justly do about the mosque being built? Anything? Or is this just more pointless bitching and moaning? And I'm not saying you can't sit there and pointlessly bitch and moan. You are more than free to do that. I want to know if you can honestly answer the question and give a legitimate and just course of action against the mosque. Because if it ain't your business and if you ain't got any legitimate course of action; guess what? You're just bitching for bitching's sake. Again, not illegal not saying it is. But I tend not to listen to people throwing a temper tantrum with no legitimacy behind it.
    Well thanks for your permission. I don't need it. And I complained about your style of addressing me because it is really nothing more than flame bait, and you know it.

    So deflection and run away tactics is what you're down to. Kk.
    I am not running anywhere. I'm right here buddy.

    Who cares? Why is it your concern? So he lied. He's not the first religious leader to lie, won't be the last. Why is it your business?
    Again, you don't care? Yeah right, that is why you are in here just like me typing away eh? Good one. I'll decide what is my business thank you.

    Mormons fundraised against prop 8 was it? In CA? Should they be punished? Fact is, lots of churches preach politics from the pulpit and we don't really do anything about it.
    Yep. You liberals hiding as faux Libertarians, and Independents need to learn one thing, and that is that separation of Church and State should be applied equally, not only when it is convenient for your side.


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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Well, I relooked it up for you:

    In a recorded interview with Time magazine[80] McVeigh professed his belief in "a god", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."

    Timothy McVeigh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    You leave out where he goes on to say that he considers himself agnostic, and that "science is his religion". It also doesn't specifically suggest "his core beliefs" are referencing to Catholic doctrine or simple morals.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You leave out where he goes on to say that he considers himself agnostic, and that "science is his religion". It also doesn't specifically suggest "his core beliefs" are referencing to Catholic doctrine or simple morals.
    Also I don't think his religion was the reason for the bombing. So it's not a good parallel.
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    The top two floors being prayer space does NOT equal a mosque. It's a 14-story building. I'm not hesitant. It's just not factual.
    For breakfast I took flour, baking powder, salt, eggs, and milk and mixed them together. I then poured the substance on a hot frying pan with butter. I know what you're thinking, but no, it was not a pancake. It was much larger than any panckae you ever saw and I even added strawberrys and bannanas to the top. I like to call it a community breakfast. Yes, it is that big.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York




    For God's sake people, listen to the words of this man.


    j-mac
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You leave out where he goes on to say that he considers himself agnostic, and that "science is his religion". It also doesn't specifically suggest "his core beliefs" are referencing to Catholic doctrine or simple morals.
    Actually, if you look back, I mentioned that. I did not leave it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo
    He actually grew up Catholic and stated in an interview that he kept his core childhood beliefs. You check wikipedia for that. thy also mention the agonstic article.
    Though this all skips the point. If te klan works better for you, fine. I'm concerned with the point and nothing else.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Well, I relooked it up for you:

    In a recorded interview with Time magazine[80] McVeigh professed his belief in "a god", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."

    Timothy McVeigh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Thanks, I didn't look down far enough. So he went to church as a kid then decided he was agnostic. It had nothing to do with the bombing. I found this on your Wikipedia link.

    Timothy McVeigh's Letter to Fox News
    Thursday, April 26, 2001

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The following letter has been authenticated and was sent to Fox News Correspondent Rita Cosby. The opening statement was a photocopied statement in McVeigh's writing. The question-and-answer section following it is clearly an original version in McVeigh's writing.
    Original story at: FOXNews.com - McVeigh's Apr. 26 Letter to Fox News - U.S. & World

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Regardless of your or my personal opinion of Timothy McVeigh and his act of war against the Murrah Federal Building and occupants, his letter to Fox News is one for the history books. Please remember the famous parable that "Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it." Doc.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I explain herein why I bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. I explain this not for publicity, nor seeking to win an argument of right or wrong. I explain so that the record is clear as to my thinking and motivations in bombing a government installation.
    I chose to bomb a federal building because such an action served more purposes than other options. Foremost, the bombing was a retaliatory strike; a counter attack, for the cumulative raids (and subsequent violence and damage) that federal agents had participated in over the preceding years (including, but not limited to, Waco.) From the formation of such units as the FBI's "Hostage Rescue" and other assault teams amongst federal agencies during the '80's; culminating in the Waco incident, federal actions grew increasingly militaristic and violent, to the point where at Waco, our government - like the Chinese - was deploying tanks against its own citizens.

    Knowledge of these multiple and ever-more aggressive raids across the country constituted an identifiable pattern of conduct within and by the federal government and amongst its various agencies. For all intents and purposes, federal agents had become "soldiers" (using military training, tactics, techniques, equipment, language, dress, organization, and mindset) and they were escalating their behavior. Therefore, this bombing was also meant as a pre-emptive (or pro-active) strike against these forces and their command and control centers within the federal building. When an aggressor force continually launches attacks from a particular base of operation, it is sound military strategy to take the fight to the enemy.

    Additionally, borrowing a page from U.S. foreign policy, I decided to send a message to a government that was becoming increasingly hostile, by bombing a government building and the government employees within that building who represent that government. Bombing the Murrah Federal Building was morally and strategically equivalent to the U.S. hitting a government building in Serbia, Iraq, or other nations. Based on observations of the policies of my own government, I viewed this action as an acceptable option. From this perspective, what occurred in Oklahoma City was no different than what Americans rain on the heads of others all the time, and subsequently, my mindset was and is one of the clinical detachment. (the bombing of the Murrah building was not personal , no more than when Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marine personnel bomb or launch cruise missiles against government installations and their personnel.)

    I hope that this clarification amply addresses your question.

    Sincerely, Timothy J. McVeigh
    USP Terre Haute (IN)

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