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Thread: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

  1. #111
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    That's a lie. McVeigh was agnostic. There is nothing you can find where he proclaims he was a Christian or anything he has done that would show he is a Christian. He said he was agnostic.
    He actually grew up Catholic and stated in an interview that he kept his core childhood beliefs. You check wikipedia for that. thy also mention the agonstic article.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Are you saying all muslims in SA, 3rd generation, have the same views as terrorists?
    No, I'm saying a 3rd generation American Muslim is likely to have a very different take on what their religion states and believes than a devoutely religious SA Muslim, so suggesting that ALL Islam is the exact same without extreme or moderate versions is ridiculous.

  3. #113
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Hey James, how about you not duck out of your other thread when you attempted this ridiculous comparison and you take me up on my challenge to tell me how Catholics building a church next to a place with kids, of which no Catholic had ever molested said children some said place before, is the same as building a mosque next to a site that was the site of an attack that was LARGELY tied to the following of Islam?
    Those Muslims building a mosque two blocks away from ground zero never flew any planes into buildings, so it is a valid comparison. And a bunch of terrorists scum who claim to be religious does not mean the whole entire religion as well as the different sects of that religion are all like that. The KKK claims to be a christian organization but yet all white Christians are not held accountable for what terrorist organization did in the past.

    I can't help but notice you declared it "exactly the same" and then never ever showed your face again to back up the claim.
    It is the same. I apologize for not directing my full attention to a non-issue such as this. The media should be reporting real stories instead of nonsense such as this.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  4. #114
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yes, as I said if the Klan did it based specifically on justifications and reasonings regarding their faith, much like Al queda's protest to US Middle East Policy is based off the notion that they're desecrating the "Land of Islam" and that Allah commands them to fight against such people.
    Actually, the Klan did cite the Bible as justifications and reasonings. Now you can say that they bastardized and/or twisted what the Bible said, but that is exactly the point with the 19 hijackers. It's a loose association. If this was what Islam really was, we'd all be posting from our terror bunkers.

    What if they said that Judas Priest, Ozzy Osbourne, movie creator or video game were their motivation? Would that be the fault of the people who produced their product?

    It's not the fault of Briggs & Stratton if you cut your fingers off using your lawn mower as a hedgetrimmer.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



  5. #115
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No, I'm saying a 3rd generation American Muslim is likely to have a very different take on what their religion states and believes than a devoutely religious SA Muslim, so suggesting that ALL Islam is the exact same without extreme or moderate versions is ridiculous.
    Of course there will be general difference, and specific difference among people and places, and even with people in the same place and upbringing.

    But all this skips the point. You cannot link the actions of those who misuse a relgion with those who practice a relgion legitimately. Nor should you assume someone's motives and use misrepresentations of comments as the basis for doing so. Muslims are not the enemy, or not responsible for those who misuse the religion.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    All of these comparisons are invalid and involve moving the goal posts. You go after jamesrage for the innacuracy of his analogies, yet you continually resort to inv alid analogies yourself on this issue, Zyph. IMO, you should hold yourself to the same standards you hold your opponents on this, Zyph.
    Yes, my analogies are not exactly the same. However, UNLIKE Jamesrage I'm not CLAIMING they're the same.

    To explain: the bar in your example is being placed on the exact location of the accident immediately after the incident. Thus it is invalid becuse we are not talking about the exact same location (that's a gross distortion made by opponents of this mosque, unless of course a Burlington coat factory was the intended target of the attacks) nor are we talking abotu immeiately after the attacks.
    Correct. However, I was giving an example of a similiar...not EXACT as was the words James used...situation. The reason I changed portions of it is because to me, SCALE matters. A drunk driving accident that kills 5 people in a single town is not anywhere near the scale of an attack on a massive American building known the world over that killed more than 3,000 people and was a devestating attack upon the country, affecting almost every citizen in some way and is known by almost every citizen even those that weren't alive at the time. That SCALE doesn't compare at all to a drunk driving accident that killed 5 people, so to me relatively immedietely after a drunk driving accident is about the same impact in regards to how touchy of a subject it still is as ten years after 9/11 would be.

    In the church example, you have the same issue. Exact same location, and the time-frame after the incident is dramartically smaller. As pointed out above, this is invalid.
    As above, I'm not stating its EXACTLY the same, and again, the SCALE would be greatly different which factors into it.

    The pearl harbor example is the best of them all, but again, you cut the distance down arbitrarily. It's not 2 long blocks away, but instead it's "right outside".
    Except you've missed my comments regarding what I think "right outside" could denote. Here's the issue, I am not familiar with whether or not Pearl Harbor is in a large city or not. I was there 12 years ago. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t. I’ve already explained why I think within a few blocks in a large city is essentially “right outside” of an area. If it was down the road walking distance away from Pearl Harbor my statement would remain the same. Right Outside is within the vicinity of the location thought of as the Pearl Harbor area. To me, the blocks surrounding and serviced by the World Trade Center subway are is generally the World Trade Center area.

    Also, the building being built is not iof the same nature as the one being built here. If your analogy involved a Shinto community center built a few blocks from Pearl Harbor instead of a Japanese museum glorifying Japanese history being built just outside of Pearl harbor, it would be a valid analogy. Teh time frame is valid, but the thing being built and the distance is not.
    Japanese history, specifically the mentality of their emperors, was instrumental in the actions that caused pearl harbor. Shinto, to my understanding, was not involved in the decision to, justification for, or methods used to attack Pearl Harbor.

    In every single anaolgy you present, you move the goal posts just a bit. I'm sure you will use the scale of the attacks as the justification for this moving of the goalposts, but I reject that as a weak justification. It is not supported by logic.
    Of course its supported by logic based on what I'm arguing which is the respect and tact shown to those affected by the attacks. Scale greatly matters and logically is a part of it. Something that is not remember 5 years ago doesn't matter with regards to the affecting emotions based on respect and tact shown because no ones remembering it to be offended. Something that IS remembered 5 years later would matter.

    True or false: Americans have been killing muslims in the name of democracy for over ten years.
    True

    True or false: Those who pull the strings on the americans who do the killing are part of a democratic regime that demonizes non-democratic countries, exspecially many of them found in th eMuslim world.
    True.

    note people, I'm answering his question.

    True or false: These puppet master have vowed to bring democracy to the Middle East, and have shown that they are willing to kill in order to do so.
    True.

    True ro false: McDonalds is an American company and often is used to represent american captialist and democratic ideals.
    False, but now you veer off from it. McDonalds is not associated with the American government, has a hand in any of the actions going on across the seas in regards to wars, and other such things. McDonalds != Democracy. Indeed, one can find McDonalds in locations that are far from Democracies.

    Thus, it is tactless to open up a McDonalds anywhere near the middle east.
    You were doing well until you reached with McDonalds trying to equate McDonalds as directly related to the doctrine and belief of Democracy as a mosque is directly related to the doctrine and belief of Islam.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Those Muslims building a mosque two blocks away from ground zero never flew any planes into buildings, so it is a valid comparison.
    No, but SOME Muslims did.

    In your scenario NO catholics, not the ones building it or ones not building it, molested children at that chuck-e-cheese.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Actually, the Klan did cite the Bible as justifications and reasonings. Now you can say that they bastardized and/or twisted what the Bible said, but that is exactly the point with the 19 hijackers. It's a loose association. If this was what Islam really was, we'd all be posting from our terror bunkers.
    I'm confused. I was discussing a hypothetical situation that someone else put forward not an actual event.

    What if they said that Judas Priest, Ozzy Osbourne, movie creator or video game were their motivation? Would that be the fault of the people who produced their product?
    Let me put it this way. I think it was idiotic to blame "Doom" for columbine. I wouldn't exactly think building ID's (if they still existed) developer headquarters down the street from Columbine would be a very tactful thing to do if the people in the town/city were still rather uncomfortable with the emotions it swirled up.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No, but SOME Muslims did.

    In your scenario NO catholics, not the ones building it or ones not building it, molested children at that chuck-e-cheese.
    Some catholics did, but you can't make all catholics responsible. Only those who did are responisble.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Some catholics did, but you can't make all catholics responsible. Only those who did are responisble.
    Actually no, in his scenario he did not say any catholics specifically molested kids at that chuck-e-cheese.

    For it to be equivilent to what you're saying I'd have to be saying you shouldn't build mosques ANYWHERE in the U.S. because muslims attacked the U.S. at some point. I'm not making that argument.

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