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Thread: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

  1. #101
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I don't know if religions can really be blamed for the actions of man. Religions are just abstract ideals and stories made up by people. The use of religions is totally up to the individual themselves. Religions do not act, religions cannot act; only man acts. Any given religion can be made violent and any given religion can be made peaceful. It's all how the individual chooses to act. If not religion, we'll come up with other excuses for our actions; it's not like religion is unique in this charge.
    Anything that can be abuse will be abused by someone. It is not uncommon to use something like religion to justify all manner of actions, good and evil. That's why blaming a religion seems fruitless. Best to blame the people commit the evil.

    Just agreeing with you.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It isn't tied to 9/11 any more than McVey and Okl. City is to Christianity. So, I had your logic accurately pegged, and have shown it flawed. There is nomore insult to building a mosque than to build a Christina Church in OKl. City. None.
    Jesus ****ing christ.

    Go back, read what I wrote about McVeigh, and then get back to me when you want to have a discussion. Unless you can actually offer up some evidence disproving my statements on him, the OKC bombing, and how much Christianity had any impact on him OR said bombing I'm not responding any further to this ignorance.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It isn't tied to 9/11 any more than McVey and Okl. City is to Christianity. So, I had your logic accurately pegged, and have shown it flawed. There is nomore insult to building a mosque than to build a Christina Church in OKl. City. None.
    McVeigh was not a Christian. He was agnostic.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    But those being "inflamed" are being "inflamed" for illogical and entirely personal reasons. I tend to see this argument as very much a case of PC gone wild. I am not saying the anger is not real, but the people building this "mosque" are not terrorists, are not responsible for 9/11, the religion is not guilty for 9/11. I cannot stop people from being "inflamed", but I would not other people's let irrational emotion effect my decisions.
    I would if my purpose was to "build bridges", provide "out reach", and attempt to promote acceptance of equality and diversity amongst religions and compasion towards my religion. If THAT was my purpose than emotions, rather irrational or not, would be something I'd DEFINITELY let affect my decision because if by ignoring it I make my ability to do all the things I've stated as my purposes harder if not absolutely impossible with the groups of people who would need said things the most then frankly I'm cutting off my nose to spite my face.

    Then again, if that wasn't really my purpose but just what I was stating publicly because it sounds a lot better than my honest intent or purpose, then yeah...you're right...I wouldn't really care about peoples emotions.

  5. #105
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Look everyone, someone that actually gets what I'm saying, DISAGREES WITH MY END POSITION, and yet still is able to honestly discuss what I stated.

    Thank you YouStar.

    And I agree, its ridiculous to blame all Muslims for 9/11. Its ridiculous to think "The muslims are the enemy". And I think its even ridiculous to suggest a law must be made to keep them from placing a "mosque of conquest" or whatever other such hyperbole people are trying to place on this.

    However, I also think its ridiculous to build a mosque in such a place that's OBVIOUSLY going to needlessly inflame people if your purpose is to "build bridges". I think its ridiculous to attempt to capitalize on 9/11 and use it as a giant club to beat over the head of people visiting said location that they must be tolerant and understanding towards a religion that was instrumental in the attacks.

    Do I think that message in general...that we should be tolerant of Islam, more understanding, and realize that not all muslims are terrorist...a good one? ABSOLUTELY! But I think that it does that message a disservice to try and force it on people and club them over the head with it through the use of 9/11 itself. I think its disrespectful, tactless, and insulting. I think it shouldn't have been there, and I applaud the Mayor for offering tem up other land, and I support those that protest it. And I would oppose any law that attempted to forbid them from going forward with it.
    Thank you.

    And I agree that it isn't the wisest thing to do. Because even if I don't, many people are going to think Mosque=Islam=Terrorism. To my understanding it is being built to take in some of the overflow from other mosque's in the area. If they really wanted to build bridges, they would make it a place where all faiths can have service, have a mosque, church, synagogue, and come from the viewpoint that were all Americans of faith, and have no conflict with each other. At it's current state, it's just another mosque/community center in a location that is sensitive to some people.
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Why are you so hesitant to call a space for islamic religious services a mosque? It's a building that will contain a mosque and all these other things you keep wanting to bring up.
    The top two floors being prayer space does NOT equal a mosque. It's a 14-story building. I'm not hesitant. It's just not factual.

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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I would if my purpose was to "build bridges", provide "out reach", and attempt to promote acceptance of equality and diversity amongst religions and compasion towards my religion. If THAT was my purpose than emotions, rather irrational or not, would be something I'd DEFINITELY let affect my decision because if by ignoring it I make my ability to do all the things I've stated as my purposes harder if not absolutely impossible with the groups of people who would need said things the most then frankly I'm cutting off my nose to spite my face.
    That is looking at it short term however. A few years from now, when the controversy has died down, people are using the community center and enjoying it, it could very well have the desired effect. Will it? Damned if I know, predicting the future is not very accurate, but it is entirely within the realm of possibility.
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    it is my business because I live in the freest country on Earth, and have a right to declare my opinion, and discuss anything I wish to discuss. Your little snarky fascist comments aside.
    I remember someone getting all bent out of shape once when I used the "fascist" line. But regardless, that is not an argument for being your business. You can say what you want, talk about what you want; even stuff that ain't none of your business. It's true, being a busybody ain't against the law. But I wanted to know what business it was of yours. Is it your religion? Are you going to this place? Are your rights negatively effected by this planned mosque? What is it in any of this that is YOUR business. Let's have an honest answer this time; not some free speech deflect. I am not arguing that you can't say anything about it. I just think that you're sticking your nose in other people's beeswax. Why is this mosque your business. Tell me the negative side effect towards your rights and liberties that makes this your business. Not some "I can be a busybody if I want" argument; no one is arguing that you can't. I want to know why it's your business. Can you honestly answer the question? Or is all you have pointless, useless, and worthless bitching?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Love the progressive bent in your question here Ikari. As if the Mosque of conquest that you so love were to bow to public pressure and move, that would be 'un' just. What a load. I have the right to speak out against it and lobby my politicians to put pressure on them to move it, or pursue any legal ways to block it. That is America buddy. if you don't like it well, you know what to do.
    No one said you couldn't bitch. But you wanted to complain about personal insults or some other BS like that when I asked if you had legitimate reason and legitimate course or if all you have is endless crying. So the second part of this question again isn't a "can you bitch about X", you can bitch about anything you want. The second part of the question is about legitimate course. Is there anything you can justly do about this mosque? Again, you didn't answer the question, you tried to deflect along the free speech route. So I ask again, what can you legitimately and justly do about the mosque being built? Anything? Or is this just more pointless bitching and moaning? And I'm not saying you can't sit there and pointlessly bitch and moan. You are more than free to do that. I want to know if you can honestly answer the question and give a legitimate and just course of action against the mosque. Because if it ain't your business and if you ain't got any legitimate course of action; guess what? You're just bitching for bitching's sake. Again, not illegal not saying it is. But I tend not to listen to people throwing a temper tantrum with no legitimacy behind it.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ooooh I am so hurt. I just internet tough guy's. Listen, when you have an argument based in some sort of civil tone, then maybe we can get somewhere, until then all I see is a kid in mom's basement with a puffed out chest because you can type....
    So deflection and run away tactics is what you're down to. Kk.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    We don't, and were it not for the absurd claim of Imam Rauf that he is building it as some sort of outreach. It is not.
    Who cares? Why is it your concern? So he lied. He's not the first religious leader to lie, won't be the last. Why is it your business?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    In this country there are walls between religion and political speech from the pulpit, although you really wouldn't be able to tell considering the last election cycle, but they are there, a church can lose tax status if they cross the line.
    Mormons fundraised against prop 8 was it? In CA? Should they be punished? Fact is, lots of churches preach politics from the pulpit and we don't really do anything about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Me thinks you are emulating a bit too much hazelnut.

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  9. #109
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    That's a ridiculous notion.

    You're telling me that a 3rd generation Muslim living in America and someone born and raised in Saudi Arabia by highly religious parents are going to have exactly the same views with regards to what their holy books mean and imply and the interpritation of its rules and edicts?
    Are you saying all muslims in SA, 3rd generation, have the same views as terrorists? I would not argue all Christinas ever had the same views, even in the same place and tme, brought up in the same community.

    It is too general to make the leap that we need to be offended by those who did not act, did not attack.

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  10. #110
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    Re: Protesters rally against, for planned Islamic center in New York

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    As I've said elsewhere, its tactless. It'd be tactless to build a bar immedietely on top of a location that just had 5 people die due to a drunk driving accident, to build a church on the land that 2 years before had an abortion clinic on it but was destroyed by a christian fanatics bomb, or to have built a museum glorifying the history of Japan right outside of Pearl Harbor's naval base 10 years after that attack.
    All of these comparisons are invalid and involve moving the goal posts. You go after jamesrage for the innacuracy of his analogies, yet you continually resort to inv alid analogies yourself on this issue, Zyph. IMO, you should hold yourself to the same standards you hold your opponents on this, Zyph.

    To explain: the bar in your example is being placed on the exact location of the accident immediately after the incident. Thus it is invalid becuse we are not talking about the exact same location (that's a gross distortion made by opponents of this mosque, unless of course a Burlington coat factory was the intended target of the attacks) nor are we talking abotu immeiately after the attacks.

    In the church example, you have the same issue. Exact same location, and the time-frame after the incident is dramartically smaller. As pointed out above, this is invalid.

    The pearl harbor example is the best of them all, but again, you cut the distance down arbitrarily. It's not 2 long blocks away, but instead it's "right outside". Also, the building being built is not iof the same nature as the one being built here. If your analogy involved a Shinto community center built a few blocks from Pearl Harbor instead of a Japanese museum glorifying Japanese history being built just outside of Pearl harbor, it would be a valid analogy. Teh time frame is valid, but the thing being built and the distance is not.

    In every single anaolgy you present, you move the goal posts just a bit. I'm sure you will use the scale of the attacks as the justification for this moving of the goalposts, but I reject that as a weak justification. It is not supported by logic.


    As far as your true and false commentary:


    True or false: Americans have been killing muslims in the name of democracy for over ten years.

    True or false: Those who pull the strings on the americans who do the killing are part of a democratic regime that demonizes non-democratic countries, exspecially many of them found in th eMuslim world.

    True or false: These puppet master have vowed to bring democracy to the Middle East, and have shown that they are willing to kill in order to do so.

    True ro false: McDonalds is an American company and often is used to represent american captialist and democratic ideals.


    Thus, it is tactless to open up a McDonalds anywhere near the middle east.
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