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The Rev. Franklin Graham Says President Obama was 'Born a Muslim'

But you still haven't answered the question, so let me ask it another way...

In your opinion, did any of the former U.S. President since Reagan use their religion to garner (your) vote(s)? If so, which one(s)? And why do you believe that said President's proclaimation of his religious preference was anymore disengenuious than any other before him? What about his conduct lead you to believe he was lying about being a follower of the religion he claim to be a believere of?

Note: The issue now seems to be that the President isn't who he claims to be based on his public pronouncement of his choosen religious faith. So, now I would like to know what makes his pronouncement any less believable than his predecessors. Again, those who don't believe he is a Christian, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm not putting you down for it. So, please don't misunderstand me here. I'm simply wondering why is it so difficult for people to take him at face value whereas it was so easy for us to accept ALL other Presidents who came before him?

Lets see...

Bush went to church before he was elected and after, but I dont recall (maybe I missed it) Bush inviting cameras in to record the events and having it plastered on the news. So I would put Bush in the religous category. I know Bill had a fair amount of religous contacts before and after. Hugely ironic him 'praying' in private with the 'reverand' Jessie Jackson for strength following the Lewinsky affair thing (then again...since it was just before the revelation about Jessie bastard child, maybe they were just sharing a 'ho down'!). I understand he spent a lot of time in the oral office repeating the words Ohmigodohmigodohmigod...over and over (interjected with some "yeah thats right baby" and some "do that thing you do with the cigar". So...Lets just call him 'spiritual.' Bush sr was a regular church goer before and after. Reagan, not so much. Carter...absolutely. Nixon...no clue but most democrats believe he regularly took communion with Satan...not sure if that counts...

Now...

How many white politicians suddenly find religion just before elections and end up in black congregations...and on camera? And which side of the aisle do they usually reside? And after the elections how often do they attend?

Obama was a partier in HS and college. He was an admitted crackfiend while he was an Illinois representative. Other than his attendance at the right rev Wrights church I dont think he went...before or since. He says in 20 years he never heard any of the race rhetoric that was going on in Wrights church which means he was either deeply meditating or on a snoozer or lying.

OK...has that adequately answered your question?
 
I think it has been shown that there is a wide spectrum of belief under the tent of Islam, much like there is under the tent of Christianity.

And no, I don't remember the Palin church thing, but I don't doubt that it happened. It's no more justified than any other criticism of religion, in my opinion, so long as that religion does not affect policy. If it does, I think the door has been opened for legitimate criticism.

Islamic beliefs aren't the same as our western Judeo-Christian beliefs, to claim there is no real difference is silly.
 
Islamic beliefs aren't the same as our western Judeo-Christian beliefs, to claim there is no real difference is silly.
And to think that I said that is also silly.
 
But again I ask what does this have to do with Barrack H. Obama, Jr., the man!? Not the child, but the man? If he has renounced Islam as a man, what difference does it make what his old religion - that which was thrust upon him as a child - have to do with how he conducts himself now as a man?

You're doing the same exact song-N-dance Rev. F. Graham has done. No matter how truthful he may have been concerning the religious lineage of Islam, if the individual renounces said faith, what does it matter now what faith he was born into? Let me explain why this line of questioning is relevent...

Why do you have such a problem with the facts? He was a Muslim. According to 1.5 billion Muslims and their faith, he was a Muslim.

Now he is a Christian. Nothing in what the Reverend said was false yet you obsessively cling to denying the history. Why do you resist being factually accurate about the man's past?



In post #198, j-mac posted the Islamic definition of "Apostasy" - (in short) to turn away from or renounce your religions, towit, Islam. He then posted a list of ways inwhich someone who may not have renounce Islam may be clever enough to hide among us pretending to be something they are not. This is what I believe Rev. F. Graham was attempting to get at...a play on words yet still lamenting that we have a "closet Muslim in the White House" in essentially stating that "born a Muslim, always a Muslim". So, I ask how can one renounce Islam yet continue to disguise his true faith as the highest level public figure in this country? How is it possible that his turning towards Mecca goes un-notices? That it goes un-notices that he prostrate himselve five times a day? That he reads from the Qu'ran regularly? That he doesn't eat pork? How does all these things go un-notices?

Once again you rely on nothing but your own bias to support your claims. First you falsely accused me of saying things I never said and now you are using personal bias to find the "true intentions" of the Reverend. When you can rely on facts, let us know. Relying on supposition isn't an argument.
 
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I don't subscribe to anything Zyphlin. I simply recognize what the religion says about children born into their faith.

I find it just as rediculus to ignore how a religion views a child, NOT an adult.

I disagree with you entirely. According to the Jewish faith, I have the right of return to Israel, because I was born of a Jewish mother. But there is a caveat here, in regard to Judaism. I would have to accept the Jewish faith in order to become Jewish. My father was a Catholic who converted to the Protestant faith. I was not brought up Jewish, and never accepted Judaism as my faith, so I am not really Jewish.

There is a parallel here. Obama was born of an Islamic father and a Christian mother. Obama was raised Christian, and never accepted the Islamic faith. The only way to become Muslim is to state their declaraton of faith, which Obama never did, so Obama is not Muslim.

IMHO, this attempt to link Obama to Islam is out of nothing but hatred for him. Now I don't like Obama being the president, but it is because I am opposed to his policies. However, I strongly believe that he is a Christian, and that he loves America just as much as I do. I refuse to take part in any smear campaign against him, which is what this crap about his being Islamic is really all about.
 
I don't subscribe to anything Zyphlin. I simply recognize what the religion says about children born into their faith.

I find it just as rediculus to ignore how a religion views a child, NOT an adult.

Gotcha, so you have respect for what Islam terms an individual when it suits your purpose. If they term someone an infidel and worthy of death, that can be ignored as crazy. If they term someone as being born a muslim and thus being a muslim at one point, then we should respect that.
 
And to think that I said that is also silly.

You imply someones religion doesn't matter, I was showing how you were wrong.
Kinda why Romney will never get the GOP Nod...
 
You imply someones religion doesn't matter, I was showing how you were wrong.
Kinda why Romney will never get the GOP Nod...

Romney chose his religion too. Besides, you never know. Romney might get the nod.
 
You imply someones religion doesn't matter, I was showing how you were wrong.
Kinda why Romney will never get the GOP Nod...
Please show me where Obama's supposed Islamic faith influences his policy decisions.
 
Why do you have such a problem with the facts? He was a Muslim. According to 1.5 billion Muslims and their faith, he was a Muslim.

Let me correct you...according to Rev. F. Graham in accorance with Islamic tradition, Pres. Obama was born a Muslim and as such according to Rev. F. Graham (or atleast what he and others here are elluding to) he cannot renounce being a Muslim. Hence as I've said, "born a Muslim, always a Muslim". That's essentially what it appears to be what he's saying.

Now he is a Christian. Nothing in what the Reverend said was false yet you obsessively cling to denying the history. Why do you resist being factually accurate about the man's past?

I've said no such thing. In fact, I've basically said if that's how Rev. F. Graham interprets Islamic tennants then so be it. However, I'd say he is wrong if by nothing else than the very issues j-mac raised in post #198. How does one "apostasy" - turn away from - Islam yet subvert it in such a way that the deception goes un-noticed by everyone close around him? He has got to be the most public figure in the country! How does his following Islamic religious rituals go un-noticed by so many for so long? Someone has got to notice him praying, eating, sleeping, the clothes he wears, what holy book he reads. According to the 9/11 Commission report, even the 9/11 terrorist adhered to many of their Islamic customs leading up to the attacks!!! So, how does this one man's religious deeds and rituals go un-noticed by so many?

...........................

Once again you rely on nothing but your own bias to support your claims. First you falsely accused me of saying things I never said and now you are using personal bias to find the "true intentions" of the Reverend. When you can rely on facts, let us know. Relying on supposition isn't an argument.

Again, I've done no such thing. I've merely used your words as an example of how people are claiming one thing but like Rev. F. Graham, hiding their true meaning by saying something else. If you have been "caught" doing so but are attempting to hide behind Rev. F. Graham's words, then you're just as guilty in attempting to defend him. So, let me be clear...

Even if Barrack H. Obama, Jr., was born Muslim, he has renounced the Islamic religion and has proclaimed publically to be a Christian. As such, why is defending the words of Rev. F. Graham so important to you? Why must we accept the notion of "born a Muslim, always a Muslim"? Why is this so critical particularly where the President is concerned? Are you and others who agree with Rev. F. Graham really saying that Pres. Obama can NEVER turn away from his Muslim faith under the tennants of Islam? If so, then the way I see it that's Pres. Obama's problem. I'd suggest he keep his Secret Service agents very close to deflect those stones that his fellows Muslims throw his way. :roll:
 
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Romney chose his religion too. Besides, you never know. Romney might get the nod.

That's aside the point Dan. Romney is a Morman, his religion is... at odds with the GOP Base as a whole. It played into his failing in 2008, but Romney Care will kill his chances in 2012.
 
Please show me where Obama's supposed Islamic faith influences his policy decisions.

Where did I imply that? I didn't. YOU imply that someones religion doesn't matter. I'm showing that it can and will impact a person.

Quit trying to claim I'm implying Obama is a Muslim. ISLAMIC LAW, says he is and always will be, that's where Rev. Graham's discussion catches the most heat. You're still stuck on "OMG OMG OMG NO HE ISN'T OMG OMG OMG!!!"
 
I disagree with you entirely. According to the Jewish faith, I have the right of return to Israel, because I was born of a Jewish mother. But there is a caveat here, in regard to Judaism. I would have to accept the Jewish faith in order to become Jewish. My father was a Catholic who converted to the Protestant faith. I was not brought up Jewish, and never accepted Judaism as my faith, so I am not really Jewish.

I've already documented what Islam says about children born to Muslim parents. Why you are bringing up Judaism and Catholicism makes no sense at all.

There is a parallel here. Obama was born of an Islamic father and a Christian mother. Obama was raised Christian, and never accepted the Islamic faith. The only way to become Muslim is to state their declaraton of faith, which Obama never did, so Obama is not Muslim.

That is patently false. You once again have not done your homework on the faith and what they believe.

Any child of Muslim parents is considered a Muslim, and Islamic law contains precise and detailed provisions regarding children. Islam is the system of beliefs, rituals, and practices traced back to the Prophet Muhammad (c. 570–632 C.E.), who reportedly started his mission in Arabia in 610 C.E. Islamic law is contained in the Muslim holy book, the Qur'an (or Koran), as revealed to Muhammad.

Islam - Islamic Law, A Childs Upbringing, Duties of Parents, Religious Education - Encyclopedia of Children and Childhood in History and Society

You would do well to do some basic research next time.

IMHO, this attempt to link Obama to Islam is out of nothing but hatred for him.

IMHO indeed.

Now I don't like Obama being the president, but it is because I am opposed to his policies.

We'll leave that to another time.

However, I strongly believe that he is a Christian, and that he loves America just as much as I do. I refuse to take part in any smear campaign against him, which is what this crap about his being Islamic is really all about.

Once again I am not saying he isn't a Christian now. In fact I've said that repeaedly if you had read you would have seen that. But that doesn't change what Islamic belief is about children or his heritage from his Muslim father to his Muslim name. Yes now he is a Christian but when he was born, given a Muslim name, the Muslim faith recognized him as a Muslim.

This is all the Reverend said. Why you are intent on arguing basic facts is very confusing.
 
Where did I imply that? I didn't. YOU imply that someones religion doesn't matter. I'm showing that it can and will impact a person.

Quit trying to claim I'm implying Obama is a Muslim.
Okay, I'm done playing word games with a person who can't spell.

Let me know if you ever figure out what your position is, m'kay?
 
Yes now he is a Christian but when he was born, given a Muslim name, the Muslim faith recognized him as a Muslim.

New decree of ScottDism, when the first son of Texmaster is born, he shall automatically be considered a follower of the allmighty and powerful ScottD, and he will be until he denounces said religion.
 
New decree of ScottDism, when the first son of Texmaster is born, he shall automatically be considered a follower of the allmighty and powerful ScottD, and he will be until he denounces said religion.

In order for that religous law to be valid Tex would at some point have to be enjoined in your church...right? You would have to actually have followers.
Good place to start though would be with the crippled and dependent liberals that rely on the government for their every need. man...if you spread out a few hundred dollars, some spam...maybe some smokes and alcohol...your 'religion' could really get rolling!
 
ISLAMIC LAW, says he is and always will be, that's where Rev. Graham's discussion catches the most heat. You're still stuck on "OMG OMG OMG NO HE ISN'T OMG OMG OMG!!!"
Yeah, that's what you are claiming. Grow a pair and own up to it.

By the way, the last person I saw that typed "OMG" was sixteen and female. Grow the **** up.
 
Yeah, that's what you are claiming. Grow a pair and own up to it.

By the way, the last person I saw that typed "OMG" was sixteen and female. Grow the **** up.

Okay, you are a PC "No, look I'm reasonable" type whom posts to be liked, and is afraid of certain discussions. Got it.

BTW, the OMG was merely a... visual aide for others on why you are so AFRAID of this discussion, and incapable of posting anything worthwhile in it.
 
Any child of Muslim parents is considered a Muslim, and Islamic law contains precise and detailed provisions regarding children. Islam is the system of beliefs, rituals, and practices traced back to the Prophet Muhammad (c. 570–632 C.E.), who reportedly started his mission in Arabia in 610 C.E. Islamic law is contained in the Muslim holy book, the Qur'an (or Koran), as revealed to Muhammad.

Being born to the father of one does not make anyone a Muslim. Following the 5 pillars of Islam and 6 articles of faith makes someone a Muslim. Taking the declaration makes one a Muslim.
A chance of birth does not make one a Muslim.
 
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Okay, you are a PC "No, look I'm reasonable" type whom posts to be liked, and is afraid of certain discussions. Got it.
Yeah, I'm definitely PC. :roll: But thanks for the off-topic ad hominem. That takes a real debater!

BTW, the OMG was merely a... visual aide for others on why you are so AFRAID of this discussion, and incapable of posting anything worthwhile in it.
If I were ... AFRAID ... I wouldn't be here ... however, I am not AFRAID ... to claim my own argument, and not ... hiding from them.
 
Being born to the father of one does not make anyone a Muslim. Following the 5 pillars of Islam and 6 articles of faith makes someone a Muslim. Taking the declaration makes one a Muslim.
A chance of birth does not make one a Muslim.

How would you know? I mean, you are only a Muslim yourself...

Oh wait..
 
Being born to the father of one does not make anyone a Muslim. Following the 5 pillars of Islam and 6 articles of faith makes someone a Muslim. Taking the declaration makes one a Muslim.
A chance of birth does not make one a Muslim.
Yeah, what do you know about being a Muslim? You definitely don't know as much as this august panel of experts among which we find ourselves who have spent dozens of minutes Googling the subject.
 
Yeah, what do you know about being a Muslim? You definitely don't know as much as this august panel of experts among which we find ourselves who have spent dozens of minutes Googling the subject.

Hey! Thats MY take on blogger 'experts'!!!

For what it is worth...there is a WORLD of difference between the muslim faith practices observed in the US...and England...as opposed to much of the middle east. For example..in some places Laila would be stoned (you know...the BAD kind of stoned) for reading..as would be the person that taught her...
 
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