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Thread: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    The Plague occurred centuries after the end of the Dark Age. The Church didn't have such tremendous power until after the Dark Ages ended and the formation of strong centralized stated started.
    I was referring to the Plague of Justinian(I probably should of been more specific), which was a major event that was a factor into the Dark Ages. Now the Church didn't have as much power as in the higher middle ages, but it did have power, and excommunication was a huge threat to anyone in power.
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    I was referring to the Plague of Justinian(I probably should of been more specific), which was a major event that was a factor into the Dark Ages. Now the Church didn't have as much power as in the higher middle ages, but it did have power, and excommunication was a huge threat to anyone in power.
    In Constantinople... While what was happening in Constantinople affected what was going on in southeastern Europe and southern Italy in the 6th century, the rest of Europe had already pretty much sunk into the Dark Age and the city didn't have all that much influence on events there. Also, there was already the beginnings of the origins of a rift between Constantinople and Rome developing at the time.
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    First off, I'm not attacking Christianity, it's just what happened. Stating facts is not attacking.

    It is good that you would like to remember history, however, we are in the here and now, and I just think that using centuries old history in order to say that what is going on today is justified in any way is just somehow not very genuine. I mean, sure we can certainly agree that Christianity had its dark moments, so has Islam in the past. But what we are facing is happening right now, not in some academic debate with no consequence.

    The opening article, and question surrounding that article is about the 20+ percent of Americans that are now thinking Obama is a Muslim, and somehow we are off the rails into how Christians in the dark ages melded religion and government? What is that?


    Secondly, I'm not defending Islam.

    Kinda...In a way you are.

    Do some muslims want to implement Sharia Law world wide, yes. Do most muslims want to, no.
    That is debatable. Do you know 'most Muslims' personally?


    And the theocracy's in the middle east are bad, but we can't do anything about them unless they pose a significant threat to us.

    What? have you been reading the headlines recently? They do.

    And even then we can't control their government after any such conflict.
    Who said anything about control? That is a paradigm that liberals seem to always want to apply. Open, and honest democracies where the people have freedom seldom need any outside control.


    IMO, we dealt with the whole "war on terror" in the wrong way. Invading countries, and nation building was not the way to go. But thats another topic.
    You just went 48 pages on the dark ages, having NOTHING to do with the original OP, and now you make a hit and run statement like this, and this can't be discussed here? Yeah, ok point me to your thread on this one please.

    Who I do defend though, is Muslim Americans, who aren't anything like the extremist in the middle east, and are generally good Americans.
    No doubt that we have a great many Muslim Americans that are far removed from the fanaticism of the radical movements now aimed at the western societies. However, there are a share of radicals right here as well. See Red House VA. or any of the 1 in 10 mosques now under surveillance by the FBI today.


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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    In Constantinople... While what was happening in Constantinople affected what was going on in southeastern Europe and southern Italy in the 6th century, the rest of Europe had already pretty much sunk into the Dark Age and the city didn't have all that much influence on events there. Also, there was already the beginnings of the origins of a rift between Constantinople and Rome developing at the time.
    The Plague of Justinian weakened the Byzantine empire at the critical point when Justinian's armies had nearly wholly invested Italy and could have credibly reformed a Western Roman Empire, which could of considerably weakened the effect of the Dark Ages.
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    The Plague of Justinian weakened the Byzantine empire at the critical point when Justinian's armies had nearly wholly invested Italy and could have credibly reformed a Western Roman Empire, which could of considerably weakened the effect of the Dark Ages.
    Modern historians are not even using the term any longer, because new information shows it wasn't really dark.
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Modern historians are not even using the term any longer, because new information shows it wasn't really dark.
    Many still use it to refer to the 6th and 7th centuries, but definately not for the ten-century span that it once was...
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It is good that you would like to remember history, however, we are in the here and now, and I just think that using centuries old history in order to say that what is going on today is justified in any way is just somehow not very genuine. I mean, sure we can certainly agree that Christianity had its dark moments, so has Islam in the past. But what we are facing is happening right now, not in some academic debate with no consequence.

    The opening article, and question surrounding that article is about the 20+ percent of Americans that are now thinking Obama is a Muslim, and somehow we are off the rails into how Christians in the dark ages melded religion and government? What is that?
    I'm not justifying it, I hate religion of any kind in politics. And I didn't start the convo about the Dark Ages. Also, if we can't parallel our history to current situations, then we will never learn from it.





    Kinda...In a way you are.
    How?

    That is debatable. Do you know 'most Muslims' personally?
    Do you? Most muslims aren't "waging Jihad against the west".



    What? have you been reading the headlines recently? They do.
    What specific country attacked us? A terrorist organization attacked us.

    Who said anything about control? That is a paradigm that liberals seem to always want to apply. Open, and honest democracies where the people have freedom seldom need any outside control.
    Do you know how hard it is to keep a new democratic government stable?


    You just went 48 pages on the dark ages, having NOTHING to do with the original OP, and now you make a hit and run statement like this, and this can't be discussed here? Yeah, ok point me to your thread on this one please.
    We can discuss it, but I didn't want to derail the thread even more. We should of bombed the living hell out of Afghanistan, to show the world if you mess with us you get the horns. Instead of wide-scale invasion of Iraq, and Afghanistan, we should of hunted down each terrorist organization, and cell, with special forces. It would of saved alot of American lives, and a big chunk of the debt we have now.

    No doubt that we have a great many Muslim Americans that are far removed from the fanaticism of the radical movements now aimed at the western societies. However, there are a share of radicals right here as well. See Red House VA. or any of the 1 in 10 mosques now under surveillance by the FBI today.


    j-mac
    Yeah, there is a radical minority( and it is played up by the media), but they won't change anything. Any law based on religion will get shot down.
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    I'm not justifying it, I hate religion of any kind in politics. And I didn't start the convo about the Dark Ages. Also, if we can't parallel our history to current situations, then we will never learn from it.
    Apples to apples would be a refreshing change today. Can you point to any parallel in today's application of Christianity toward Government, as compared to the theocracies we see in Islam?


    How?
    By digging back to a pre modern era to say that Christians did it too, is justification of sorts in my mind.


    Do you? Most muslims aren't "waging Jihad against the west".
    Many experts on the subject say that upwards of 10% of the 1.2 Billion Muslims adhere to a radicalized form of Islam, and sentiment toward Western culture. If true, are you really trying to dismiss 1.2 Million?

    Do you know how hard it is to keep a new democratic government stable?
    So it's not worth it?


    We can discuss it, but I didn't want to derail the thread even more.
    So start a thread in the proper forum and I'd be more than happy to discuss it. But as you noted it derails the thread at present we are in, just as a tangent about 7th century Christianity derails this thread of how 1 in 5 Americans see Obama as Muslim.

    Yeah, there is a radical minority( and it is played up by the media), but they won't change anything. Any law based on religion will get shot down.
    So they should just be ignored? That is a dangerous course you would place on this country.


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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Apples to apples would be a refreshing change today. Can you point to any parallel in today's application of Christianity toward Government, as compared to the theocracies we see in Islam?
    I don't know of any Christian theocracy's today, except maybe the Vatican. The parallel isn't exclusive to Christianity, it's for all religions, and that using religion in government is a bad thing. No matter what religion.

    By digging back to a pre modern era to say that Christians did it too, is justification of sorts in my mind.
    It's not a justification, it's just an example of how Islam isn't special, and it's not the only religion that was/is used to control governments.



    Many experts on the subject say that upwards of 10% of the 1.2 Billion Muslims adhere to a radicalized form of Islam, and sentiment toward Western culture. If true, are you really trying to dismiss 1.2 Million?
    We shouldn't ignore them, but we shouldn't have this fear of Islam that some people have.


    So it's not worth it?
    For American, I don't think so. Why should we have to police the world?


    So they should just be ignored? That is a dangerous course you would place on this country.


    j-mac
    They shouldn't be ignored, but there not a threat to our freedoms that some people would make them out to be. Our Constitution protects us from anyone who wants to put any religion into our laws.
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Is Christianity intertwined with right wing politics in your country that it is practised in today?

    Jet-Pack

    Actually, I'd say no. Right wingers may try to influence, but they can't do anything directly. We still have legalized abortion, which the right wingers would have never allowed it in it's present form. Some Muslim countries still cut limbs off for various theft crimes.
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