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Thread: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Ok, we are talking about it in comparison to Christianity.
    I'd like to see links proving this though.
    Oh I see only monotheistic religions counts when we're talking about religious tolerance.

    Anyways wiki will give you a nice base line from which to start:

    Persecution of Hindus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Dhimmi's could own property and could, largely, practice their religion freely.
    Could not testify against Muslims, could be killed by Muslims outright with only a tribute of blood money to be payed, could not in fact practice their religion in public or prosteltyze to Muslims in any way and suffered immense state and non-state sponsored persecution and numerous pogroms.

    Was it perfect, of course not.

    I'd also like to see links with further information on this.

    In comparison to Christian Europe, they were free to practice.
    Fellows of the book were allowed to practice, this was not the case for the Pagans and it depends when exactly we're talking about in Christian Europe, eg when the Christian religion was first adopted by the Roman empire they were very tolerant of other religions in the territories under their control and that would include the peoples who still practiced Paganism.

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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Oh I see only monotheistic religions counts when we're talking about religious tolerance.

    Anyways wiki will give you a nice base line from which to start:

    Persecution of Hindus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Yep, you're moving the goal posts.
    We are talking about the comparison to Europe and Christianity at that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Could not testify against Muslims, could be killed by Muslims outright with only a tribute of blood money to be payed, could not in fact practice their religion in public or prosteltyze to Muslims in any way and suffered immense state and non-state sponsored persecution and numerous pogroms.
    I'll withhold comment on your first point until you provide proof.

    You're using subjective measures of good and bad here.
    Could not practice in public, how?
    They were allowed their own communities and places of worship.

    Muslims didn't proselytize either, it's not part of their religion to do so.

    Life isn't perfect and never claimed that it was.
    Compared to European states, which only allowed 1 religion, they were light years ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Fellows of the book were allowed to practice, this was not the case for the Pagans and it depends when exactly we're talking about in Christian Europe, eg when the Christian religion was first adopted by the Roman empire they were very tolerant of other religions in the territories under their control and that would include the peoples who still practiced Paganism.
    We are talking about the Ottomans compared to their contemporaries.
    For a long time the Roman empire killed Christians.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Yep, you're moving the goal posts.
    We are talking about the comparison to Europe and Christianity at that time.
    And the Muslims were perpetrating mass democide and cultural genocide on the Indian Subcontinent at that time.


    I'll withhold comment on your first point until you provide proof.
    Dhimmi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    You're using subjective measures of good and bad here.
    Could not practice in public, how?
    They were allowed their own communities and places of worship.
    They could not wear crosses on the outside of their clothing, they, could not advocate their faith to others, and they could not pray in public either.

    Muslims didn't proselytize either, it's not part of their religion to do so.
    lol, it's an integral part of their religion, I'm begining to think you know very little about what you're commenting on.

    Dawah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Life isn't perfect and never claimed that it was.


    Compared to European states, which only allowed 1 religion, they were light years ahead.
    So there were no non-Christians living in Christianized Europe? Sure thing.

    We are talking about the Ottomans compared to their contemporaries.
    Which contemporaries? Europe was not a monolithic entity like the Ottoman Empire.

    For a long time the Roman empire killed Christians.
    And for a longtime they didn't.

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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    [QUOTE=Agent Ferris;1058933009]Thankyou Ward Churchill, they're are more Native Americans living in North America than there when the evil Europeans started taking censuses.
    I wasn't aware that the Conquistodores were the ones who settled what is today the United States.

    No it was done for religious reasons the trouble is the Islamist does not distinquish between the religious and the political.
    And by occupies you mean has since left after the threat of Saddam was removed, and by occupied you mean was there upon invitation of their sovereign government to defend the Kingdom.
    Cite specific examples.
    And by steal you mean found, developed, didn't do anything when they renigged on the agreed upon PSA's, and now continues to purchase.
    The first Muslim extremist was Mohammad. Islam has been expanding through the sword since its very founding and long long long before the U.S. came onto the scene, so your assertions simply hold no water. And Islam has itself destroyed or nearly destroyed entire peoples and their religions through a vast systematic policy of cultural genocide from the India Subcontinent to North Africa.
    You know the policies that I don't agree with? The fact that all five mainstream branches of Islam still call for capital and/or corporal punishment for the non-crimes of apostasy, homosexuality, adultery, and/or premarital sex.
    Native American population in the pre-Columbian era: about 12 million people, estimated as high as 18 million. Native American population according to the 2003 US Census: under 3 million. When you're making a long list of accusations, it's not good to start out with blatent misinformation, but you managed to do just that. And did you see the sentence that followed the one about Columbus -- "North and South America," you think I just threw in South America as a non sequitor? Both continents were taken by Christians who believed that God wanted them to have the land that they desired for wealth and power, just as Muslims believe that God supports their politically motivated terrorist tactics against western targets.

    You want examples of United States puppet dictators? How about Hamid Karzai? How about Ilham Aliyev? Look at all we've done to help Musharaff. There is a huge list of incredibly horrible, powerful people in the Middle East that our government assists for tactical reasons.

    I'm not interested in arguing about Islam with you. It's just like any other religion: it can be used to justify violence or it can motivate great acts of charity. I don't agree with theocracy and I don't agree with suppressing women's rights or homosexual rights. I have no interest in defending those things.
    A working class hero is something to be

  5. #245
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    And the Muslims were perpetrating mass democide and cultural genocide on the Indian Subcontinent at that time.
    Was reading that link as well.
    It said that the time of Mughal control was marked by times of tolerance and times of brutality.

    Although that doesn't excuse the brutality at all.
    Just seems like it's not all or nothing, like you implied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Dude, did you even read the link?

    "The Hanafi school, which represents the vast majority of Muslims, believes that the murder of a dhimmi must be punishable by death, citing a hadith according to which Muhammad ordered the execution of a Muslim who killed a dhimmi. In other schools of Islamic jurisprudence the maximum punishment for the murder of a dhimmi, if perpetrated by a Muslim, was the payment of blood money; no death penalty was possible. For Maliki and Hanbali schools of jurisprudence, the value of a dhimmi's life was one-half the value of a Muslim's life; in the Shafi'i school, Jews and Christians were worth one-third of a Muslim and Zoroastrians were worth just one-fifteenth.[122]"


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    They could not wear crosses on the outside of their clothing, they, could not advocate their faith to others, and they could not pray in public either.
    You know, comparatively, that's not a big deal at all.
    At least they got to practice, largely, how they wanted to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    lol, it's an integral part of their religion, I'm begining to think you know very little about what you're commenting on.

    Dawah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Be that as it may, Islam does not proselytize like Christianity does with missionaries.
    That link provided very little information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    So there were no non-Christians living in Christianized Europe? Sure thing.
    There were, of course they were persecuted and had limited privileges compared to their peers living in the Ottoman Empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Which contemporaries? Europe was not a monolithic entity like the Ottoman Empire.
    Each state had a (more or less) state religion.
    Germany, France, Spain, Britain, etc.

    By and large, the Ottoman state was more tolerate of different religious faiths, than Europe was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    And for a longtime they didn't.
    You're just derailing the discussion with this because you have, at best, flimsy evidence to counter me.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post


    Native American population in the pre-Columbian era: about 12 million people, estimated as high as 18 million.
    LOL, your article clearly states that this is the highest estimate and that credible estimates go as low as 900,000.



    Native American population according to the 2003 US Census: under 3 million. When you're making a long list of accusations, it's not good to start out with blatent misinformation, but you managed to do just that.
    Your own article states that credible estimates put the number as low as 900,000.

    And did you see the sentence that followed the one about Columbus -- "North and South America," you think I just threw in South America as a non sequitor? Both continents were taken by Christians who believed that God wanted them to have the land that they desired for wealth and power, just as Muslims believe that God supports their politically motivated terrorist tactics against western targets.
    I'm pretty sure that the settlers in North America were more interested in getting away from religious persecution.


    You want examples of United States puppet dictators? How about Hamid Karzai?
    Not a dictator, and was originally elected in free and fair elections though the latest elections were less credible.

    How about Ilham Aliyev?
    We didn't install Aliyev, and how exactly is he our puppet?

    Look at all we've done to help Musharaff.
    We didn't install him and he sure as hell wasn't our puppet.

    There is a huge list of incredibly horrible, powerful people in the Middle East that our government assists for tactical reasons.
    Well aside from the fact that not one of the three countries which you listed are in the Middle East, besides Kharzai we didn't do anything which could even be construed as installing them, and Musharaff actively worked against U.S. interests.

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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    FOXNews.com - Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows








    Stupid Fundamentalist Christians making America look bad.
    Thank you Fox News for bringing the debate and the intelligence down to that level.

  8. #248
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Was reading that link as well.
    It said that the time of Mughal control was marked by times of tolerance and times of brutality.


    Although that doesn't excuse the brutality at all.
    Just seems like it's not all or nothing, like you implied.
    Nothing except the largest genocide until Hitler, more than 13 million Hindus were systematically killed during the Islamic conquests of the Indian Subcontinent.


    Dude, did you even read the link?

    "The Hanafi school, which represents the vast majority of Muslims, believes that the murder of a dhimmi must be punishable by death, citing a hadith according to which Muhammad ordered the execution of a Muslim who killed a dhimmi. In other schools of Islamic jurisprudence the maximum punishment for the murder of a dhimmi, if perpetrated by a Muslim, was the payment of blood money; no death penalty was possible. For Maliki and Hanbali schools of jurisprudence, the value of a dhimmi's life was one-half the value of a Muslim's life; in the Shafi'i school, Jews and Christians were worth one-third of a Muslim and Zoroastrians were worth just one-fifteenth.[122]"
    1 out of 5 aint bad huh? And you fail to take into account the systematic legal discrimination, the article, also, points out that Christian testimony against a Muslim was seen as worthless, so it would be very difficult to prove crimes perpetrated by Muslims against Christians in the first place.

    You know, comparatively, that's not a big deal at all.
    At least they got to practice, largely, how they wanted to.
    Compared to who?

    Be that as it may, Islam does not proselytize like Christianity does with missionaries.
    That link provided very little information.
    Islamic Dawa is exactly the same thing as Christian prostelytizing.

    They even have their own missionaries:

    Islamic Missionary Activity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There were, of course they were persecuted and had limited privileges compared to their peers living in the Ottoman Empire.
    Prove it.


    Each state had a (more or less) state religion.
    Germany, France, Spain, Britain, etc.
    And now prove that each of these states acted in the same way towards non-Christians.

    By and large, the Ottoman state was more tolerate of different religious faiths, than Europe was.
    The Ottoman Empire encompassed a long time period, the status of Dhimmi's depended upon the rulers of the specific time as was the case in Europe as well.

    You're just derailing the discussion with this because you have, at best, flimsy evidence to counter me.
    The point is you're pointing to the Ottoman Empire which had different policies towards Dhimmi's throughout its history, the same is true in relation to Christianized Europe, different states had different policies at different times.a
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 08-20-10 at 11:55 AM.

  9. #249
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    That must be the 20% that actually believe that FauxNews is credible...buy into anything that Hannity/Rush/Beck spew....and actually believed that GWB was a good PResident.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  10. #250
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    Re: Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Thinks Obama Is Muslim, Survey Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Nothing except the largest genocide until Hitler, more than 13 million Hindus were systematically killed during the Islamic conquests of the Indian Subcontinent.
    Yep and it doesn't excuse it but again you're deflecting the issue away from the tolerance they had over Christians and Jews.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    1 out of 5 aint bad huh? And you fail to take into account the systematic legal discrimination, the article, also, points out that Christian testimony against a Muslim was seen as worthless, so it would be very difficult to prove crimes perpetrated by Muslims against Christians in the first place.
    Deflecting again.
    The fact that they could go to a court and had a chance to argue their case was better than the persecutions in Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Compared to who?
    We've discussed this already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Islamic Dawa is exactly the same thing as Christian prostelytizing.

    They even have their own missionaries:

    Islamic Missionary Activity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Except in the Ottoman empire this was not largely practiced and those Muslims largely did not do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Prove it.
    Christian debate on persecution and toleration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It covers all the areas I mentioned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    And now prove that each of these states acted in the same way towards non-Christians.
    Forced conversion, execution of heretics and expulsion.
    All cataloged in the above link.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    The Ottoman Empire encompassed a long time period, the status of Dhimmi's depended upon the rulers of the specific time as was the case in Europe as well.
    Which largely compared to Europe was better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    The point is you're pointing to the Ottoman Empire which had different policies towards Dhimmi's throughout its history, the same is true in relation to Christianized Europe, different states had different policies at different times.a
    Yep but over the course of the Ottoman Empire, relations between the different religions, were better in the Ottoman Empire than they were in Europe.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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