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Thread: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

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    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Areopagitican View Post
    http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...7/08-50345.pdf

    Generally speaking... Intentionally misrepresenting hard facts for your own personal material gain has not been protected by the First Amendment....
    So what was his gain? Getting on the water board? He ended up getting kicked off of that once people found out he's a liar.

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    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Of course you don't get it. You see the end justifying the means. Society has both a NEED and the RIGHT to protect certain institutions, we do this through laws. If this were a case of a man bad mouthing MOH winners, I would agree with you 100%. It is not, it is an issue of fraud, of harm to society. Free Speech is a bumbersticker argument that only sounds good till you think about the matter.
    Quantify the harm. Tell me in measurable terms how this is different than run-of-the-mill lying.

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    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I'm not ignoring it. The courts have restricted speech in the past. And will do so in the future. Obscenity laws are examples of restrictions of Free Speech based on the probably Harm such could do, and the needs of Society.
    Yes, but content based speech simply because it is insulting has never been banned, and never should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    How many of you would like your child exposed to a say... someone having a T-Shirt showing a close up of two men engaged in anal sex? Say with the caption "Real Love"? It's just a Free Speech issue after all.
    Now you're getting the content of the speech confused with the "Time, Place and Manner" exception, which does NOT prohibit the speech itself but only the way it is presented. You have every right to say certain things but not using a loudspeaker while standing nude in the middle of a courtroom, for instance. That T-shirt is NOT illegal, but certainly could violate a "time, speech and manner" restriction.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    The issue isn't about whether or not "Lying" is a crime, it's about the Harm that is done to the Institution of the Military, Societies vested interest in that Institution, what it means and the Value of the Awards for service. The only person a 5-Star General Salutes first, aside perhaps the President, is that E-3 with a MOH. There is a REASON we hold such men in high regard, the award in such regard. Allowing it to be diluted in the Public Realm because it's "Free Speech" to claim you were awarded it harms the Military and it harms Society.
    I agree. I could argue that idiots who claim that Obama was born in Kenya also harm America. I could argue that anyone who protests against the war harms America. I could go on and make lots of comparisons here, but I hope you get the point: We can't allow our government to decide which speech is OK and which is not.

    Seriously, your argument seems to be the exact opposite of what conservatives usually say -- that government has too much power, that they have no right to tell us what to do or think. Apparently, you throw out your convictions when someone says something you don't like, hm?

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    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    So you are against Hate Crime Legislation too? Just out of curiosity.
    I certainly am, as I said here plenty of times. I think Hate Crime legislation is unconstitutional, in that in punishes people for what they think.

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    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    I certainly am, as I said here plenty of times. I think Hate Crime legislation is unconstitutional, in that in punishes people for what they think.
    I am as well. We should punish the act, not the thought.

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    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Defamation against whom?
    How is this perjury?
    What benefit is he unlawfully gaining from others as a result of this "fraud"?
    What is immenently dangerous" about this language?
    I didn't declare a defamation in this particular case, rather, I was using it as one of the unprotected usages of speech/expression. Sorry for any confusion. His benefit gained is a greater standing in the electorate by using medals he hasn't earned to falsely bolster his reputation. That is fraud and many fraud cases do in fact carry criminal penalties as well as tort liabilitites.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    So what was his gain? Getting on the water board? He ended up getting kicked off of that once people found out he's a liar.
    How does getting kicked off the board prove his constitutional right?

    I can't prove a negative.

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    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    This is not about slander or libel or fraud. It's about some guy claiming he has an award he doesn't have. It is making lying a crime, even if no harm (other than believing the lie) comes from it.

    You guys really want that? You want everything anyone says to be subjected to a Truth Squad? You want the government to have the power to force us to always tell the truth? What's next: It's illegal to lie when someone asks if this dress makes her look fat?

    Is this guy scum for doing this? Of course. That's not the issue. Don't be blinded by the dislike of this guy to open the door to having anything you say subject to government oversight.

    The first amendment is meaningless if we only protect speech we agree with.
    If lying is a first amendment issue, then maybe we should rule unconstitutional laws which make it a crime to identify yourself as a police officer.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Areopagitican View Post
    How does getting kicked off the board prove his constitutional right?

    I can't prove a negative.
    That's not what I was claiming. Fraud requires some benefit. His benefit from lying about his MoH was getting on the water board. Exposing him as a liar caused him to lose his benefit. Government interference is really not necessary if the freedom of speech of the people who expose a liar for his lies is protected.

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    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    That's not what I was claiming. Fraud requires some benefit. His benefit from lying about his MoH was getting on the water board. Exposing him as a liar caused him to lose his benefit. Government interference is really not necessary if the freedom of speech of the people who expose a liar for his lies is protected.
    Gotta disagree Coronado, in these particular cases I don't think losing a cushy job is sufficient punishment for defrauding people. I as a private sector licensed professional don't simply lose commission if I commit fraud while presenting to clients or potential clients, I face fines and possible imprisonment because of not only the damage economically that I can do but the violation of public trust as well.

    Violations of public trust as far as I'm concerned is a very valid issue because not only is the fraudster's actions detrimental to their own reputation but the reputation of the entire profession because these stories tend to make the news. In that respect the entire political climate is cheapened every time someone is caught for egregious violations of public trust. This is why I come down so hard on this particular case as well as the fact that the military was slapped in the face by this scumbag.

    EDIT- As pertaining to paragraph 1. Not only do I face fines and imprisonment, I can also be sued into oblivion.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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