Page 7 of 11 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 104

Thread: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

  1. #61
    Defender of the Faith
    ludahai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate City
    Last Seen
    07-03-13 @ 02:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    10,320

    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Another in the long line of disgusting things our courts have ruled qualify as "free speech". I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
    We may not like the speech, but it is the First Amendment. I would rather allow distasteful speech rather than starting to decide what we will accept and what we won't. This guy is a scumbag, but the Constitution protects them too...
    Semper Paratus
    Boston = City of Champions: Bruins 2011; Celtics 2008; Red Sox 2004, 2007; Patriots 2002, 2004, 2005
    Jon Huntsman for President

  2. #62
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Alright, lets get past some of the emotion here cause this is a highly emotional thing and look at this reasonable.

    First, there seems to be conflicting information regarding whether or not lying on a job application is legally "fraud" or not. If its legally not, then trying to compare this to it is wrong.

    Secondly, I'm not seeing where perjury was done here. Would the person that made the claim please clarify?

    Thirdly, to a point I agree. I don't think we need to be going down the road of stating lying is somehow unprotected. The reason for this is there are definite times when lying is in and of itself not clear cut. This isn't one of those times, but it opens that door.

    Fourth, I could see this as being wrong at the least civilly and possibly criminal none-the-less. People keep talking about damage. Lets remove the emotional hyperbole to the side a bit. The man was running for office. While running for office he made these claims. If its found that any individual donated money to his campaign based on the fact they believed him to be a Medal of Honor winner then there is actual, tangible, damage there being perpetrated as people donated money based on a false bill of goods.

    Fifth, there seemed to be some mention he was actually GIVEN a medal at some point later based on his statements that he was a winner? Is this true? If so, did it come from someone giving them theirs or from the government? If from a person, again, you have evidence of damage. If it was from the government, then you have evidence of defrauding the government.

    I personally think there are few lower things one can do as an American than claim military service when you didn't have it. However as an American it does bother me with the notion of somehow criminalizing such things due to its more broad ramifications.

  3. #63
    Professor
    Groucho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Pocono Mountains, PA
    Last Seen
    05-24-11 @ 03:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    1,363

    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    The honor of the Military is damaged by allowing scumbags to lie about awards they have earned. It reduces morale, reduces respect, it devalues the sacrifice of our men and women. And there is little surprise our more liberal posters see no problem with a ruling that does such.

    For shame. The 9th Circuit will be overturned.
    The shame is that conservatives who claim to be "strict constructionists" of the Constitution ignore it when their feelings are hurt.

  4. #64
    Professor
    Groucho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Pocono Mountains, PA
    Last Seen
    05-24-11 @ 03:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    1,363

    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthy View Post
    This isn't just lying. It's perpetrating a fraud, a scam on others of the most despicable kind.
    A scam that is protected by the Constitution.

    He didn't say it under oath (then it would be perjury). He didn't use this lie to con people out of money (then it would be fraud). He basically lied to enhance his resume (just like certain politicians have done!).

    Of course we don't like it! Of course the guy is scum for doing it.

    I also don't like it when the KKK marches or when protesters hold up signs saying "God Hates Fags" or whenever Ann Coulter speaks. But the point of the first amendment is this: We HAVE to protect speech we hate. Speech we all agree with doesn't need protection. The first amendment is meaningless otherwise.

    The old quote about "I disagree with what you say but will defend your right to say it" apparently doesn't apply to some people here. I have to question whether they are indeed True Americans. (See? I can say that because of the 1st amendment).

  5. #65
    Professor
    Groucho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Pocono Mountains, PA
    Last Seen
    05-24-11 @ 03:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    1,363

    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Areopagitican View Post
    I sincerely believe that military honors, by definition, have a certain exclusivity that needs to be protected. Very few awards on this Earth are granted for the ultimate sacrifice, and by that exclusive nature their value is attained. By allowing individuals the right to also acquire many of the social bonuses, without taking any of the risk, detrimentally affects the emotional wealth behind the legitimate recipients of the award's receivers.
    OK, I understand your concern, but how do you then make an exception to the 1st amendment to allow this without another amendment?

    This is like flag burning. No one likes it, it insults all of us, but it's protected speech nonetheless. You'd have to change the constitution to prohibit it.

  6. #66
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    He didn't use this lie to con people out of money (then it would be fraud).
    Question,

    If people donated to his campaign fund based in part on the belief he was a medal of honor winner, would you no consider that conning people out of money?

  7. #67
    Professor
    Groucho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Pocono Mountains, PA
    Last Seen
    05-24-11 @ 03:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    1,363

    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Question,

    If people donated to his campaign fund based in part on the belief he was a medal of honor winner, would you no consider that conning people out of money?
    Interesting! I don't know. I suppose a DA could make that argument. Not sure if it would stick.

  8. #68
    Sage
    Renae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    San Antonio Texas
    Last Seen
    10-23-17 @ 10:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    38,972
    Blog Entries
    15

    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    The shame is that conservatives who claim to be "strict constructionists" of the Constitution ignore it when their feelings are hurt.
    I'm not ignoring it. The courts have restricted speech in the past. And will do so in the future. Obscenity laws are examples of restrictions of Free Speech based on the probably Harm such could do, and the needs of Society.

    How many of you would like your child exposed to a say... someone having a T-Shirt showing a close up of two men engaged in anal sex? Say with the caption "Real Love"? It's just a Free Speech issue after all.

    The issue isn't about whether or not "Lying" is a crime, it's about the Harm that is done to the Institution of the Military, Societies vested interest in that Institution, what it means and the Value of the Awards for service. The only person a 5-Star General Salutes first, aside perhaps the President, is that E-3 with a MOH. There is a REASON we hold such men in high regard, the award in such regard. Allowing it to be diluted in the Public Realm because it's "Free Speech" to claim you were awarded it harms the Military and it harms Society.

    The 9th Circuit Court failed in their judgment, and will be over turned by the SCOTUS.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  9. #69
    Professor

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Last Seen
    11-21-14 @ 03:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    2,120

    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthy View Post
    This isn't just lying. It's perpetrating a fraud, a scam on others of the most despicable kind.
    And that's already covered by law.

  10. #70
    Sage
    Renae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    San Antonio Texas
    Last Seen
    10-23-17 @ 10:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    38,972
    Blog Entries
    15

    Re: Appeals court: Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    And that's already covered by law.
    So you are against Hate Crime Legislation too? Just out of curiosity.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



Page 7 of 11 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •