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Thread: Ground Zero Mosque On The Move?

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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Imagine that you are the President of the United States for a moment, and lay out for us exactly at this moment how you would go about this in detail please.


    j-mac
    "America treasures the relationship we have with our many Muslim friends, and we respect the vibrant faith of Islam which inspires countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality. ... By working together to advance mutual understanding, we point the way to a brighter future for all."
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 09-27-10 at 11:05 AM.
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    "America treasures the relationship we have with our many Muslim friends, and we respect the vibrant faith of Islam which inspires countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality. ... By working together to advance mutual understanding, we point the way to a brighter future for all."

    Very clever. Citing Bush on ME relations from 2007. Am I to conclude then that you agree with Bush's strategies on the ME?

    j-mac
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Very clever. Citing Bush on ME relations from 2007. Am I to conclude then that you agree with Bush's strategies on the ME?

    j-mac
    Given the phrasing of your question, it was too good to pass up.

    And truthfully, I agree with quite a few of his ME strategies. Not all of them, but many of them.
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Given the phrasing of your question, it was too good to pass up.

    And truthfully, I agree with quite a few of his ME strategies. Not all of them, but many of them.

    Ok, now please answer it fully in your own words.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, now please answer it fully in your own words.

    j-mac
    As the President, or as myself?
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    As the President, or as myself?

    OMG! Really?!


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    OMG! Really?!


    j-mac
    As president I would have a wealth of knowledge at my disposal regarding what resources are available at my disposal. Do I already have charismatic "boots on the ground" within the moderate mulsim community in the regions where these advocates are active? etc. etc. Then, I would also have to be quiet about my strategy in order to protect my operatives, and thus my public discolosures of the policy and I'd have to worry about political blowback from peoplewho can only see the world in black and white and will use a long-term plan as a way to gain political support simply becaus elong-term plans don't satisfy a sound-bite society interested in immediate gratification

    As myself, I have no idea what resources are avilable, but I would say that gaining certain resourses within moderate communities and even within extremist communities (covert operatives) if not currently avialable would be the first plan of attack. If they are avialable, utilizing them would be the first course of action. If they are currently being utilized, edterimining th eefficacy of their current efforts would be the first course of action.

    The war on terror is a marathon, not a sprint. Ultimately it will not be won with a gun. They are fanatics who are more than wiling to die for their cause. The idea that "they only understand violence" is way too simple-minded and devoid of logic for me to support it. Obviously, the war on terror will require actual fighting directed at actual terrorists. But the rhetoric of civilians can be combatted without resorting to violence against those civilians. Think about it, their goal is recruitment to the cause of hating and fighting against America. Killing them and martyring them will achieve the same ultimate goal of recruitment. It's a self-defeating behavior.

    Instead, I would seek to present arguments that defeat theirs. Show that America is not the place he decribes. That we do no hate all muslims and that we are not a threat to their way of life. Granted, the American public will do their damndest to **** that up if given the chance. Say, if a mosque were to be built a couple of blocks from ground zero.

    But as I said, it's a marathon, not a sprtint. It wouldn't have immedaitely recognizable rewards. The terrorist rhetoric didn't take hold overnight, either. My posiition is that relying on teh bullet to solve one's p[roblems will have immediate rewards, but only if one is unconcerned about long-term goals of actually winning the war on terror instead of being mired in the same mess 100, even 200 years form now.
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case;1059007706B
    ecause people often get confused by the hypocritical nature of your arguments?
    You appear to be the only one who's confused.
    And you are talking about the calculated use of violence against a civilian to attain a political/ideological goal in this case.
    No. I am talking abput taking out an individual who is encouraging the murder of 300,000 people in front of an applauding audience..
    See, it's easy to get confused by your arguments when you contradict yourself.
    You are becoming confused only because you are reading what is not there.

    Yes, but you arbitrarily have decided that those who advocate terrorism are not civilians (ven though rhetoric is not enough to warrant combatant status). But the trust is that those who advocate terrorism without engagin in terrorism are still civilians. Which makes your advocacy of their elimination an advocacy of terrorism as well.
    See above.

    I'm no longer confused by your hypocritical arguments becuase it is now clear that it is merely hypocricy.
    I think we'll let others determine whether you remain confused or not.

  9. #499
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You appear to be the only one who's confused.
    I'm not confused anymore. It's clear that you are arbitrarily removing his civilian status so that you can justify an act of terrorism as being correct.

    No. I am talking abput taking out an individual who is encouraging the murder of 300,000 people in front of an applauding audience..
    His rhetoric doesn't remove his civilian status.

    You are becoming confused only because you are reading what is not there.

    See above.
    I was confused because I assumed your argument was fallacy free until such a point as it became clear that it was based on logical fallacies. Now that the falalcies are clearly present, the confusion no longer exists.

    I think we'll let others determine whether you remain confused or not.
    How could they possibly determine that? It's clear that you feel that terrorism is justified when it's against civilians who espouse rhetoric you disagree with. You do this by dishonestly moving the goalposts on what makes a civilian to mean "innocent", which is another arbitrarily decided term on your part.


    The only reason a perosn would be confused would be if they start from the presumption that your argumetns are based on sound logic instead fo fallacy. Once they relinquish this incorrect presumption based on the fact that it is evident that your argumetns are based on fallacious reasoning, the confusion is alleviated.
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  10. #500
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    As president I would have a wealth of knowledge at my disposal regarding what resources are available at my disposal. Do I already have charismatic "boots on the ground" within the moderate mulsim community in the regions where these advocates are active? etc. etc. Then, I would also have to be quiet about my strategy in order to protect my operatives, and thus my public discolosures of the policy and I'd have to worry about political blowback from peoplewho can only see the world in black and white and will use a long-term plan as a way to gain political support simply becaus elong-term plans don't satisfy a sound-bite society interested in immediate gratification

    Like Iran maybe? Also I get the feeling that you don't think things like this are already, and have long been used? How about the people of Iran? Is Obama supporting a strategy anything close to what you describe here? Or is he hanging them out to be dried, while he pursues a stupid 'make nice' agenda while being played by Amadinjihad?

    As myself, I have no idea what resources are avilable, but I would say that gaining certain resourses within moderate communities and even within extremist communities (covert operatives) if not currently avialable would be the first plan of attack. If they are avialable, utilizing them would be the first course of action. If they are currently being utilized, edterimining th eefficacy of their current efforts would be the first course of action.
    As to the bolded part, then let me ask you, how in the world can you so strongly attack another member poster with vitriol as you did above, how does that make your point assuming you actually had one, other than we should treat them nice?

    As for so called "Moderate communities" who determines that? The State dept? I don't know if I would trust that completely. And these "Moderate communities", Where are they? Red House Va.? York SC? Dearborn MI? Recent studies place as many as 1 in 5 Mosques in the US as radical, and for sure 1 in 10. how much will you gamble with our lives?


    The war on terror is a marathon, not a sprint. Ultimately it will not be won with a gun. They are fanatics who are more than wiling to die for their cause. The idea that "they only understand violence" is way too simple-minded and devoid of logic for me to support it. Obviously, the war on terror will require actual fighting directed at actual terrorists. But the rhetoric of civilians can be combatted without resorting to violence against those civilians. Think about it, their goal is recruitment to the cause of hating and fighting against America. Killing them and martyring them will achieve the same ultimate goal of recruitment. It's a self-defeating behavior.
    I can agree with this to a point, however, we must carry out actions against the most able to project their violence while at the same time convincing these governments not to support them, and the populations to denounce their tactics from within. We can't do that with the current calls of isolationism, and a President that is not committed to win.

    Instead, I would seek to present arguments that defeat theirs. Show that America is not the place he decribes. That we do no hate all muslims and that we are not a threat to their way of life. Granted, the American public will do their damndest to **** that up if given the chance. Say, if a mosque were to be built a couple of blocks from ground zero.
    And when they reject your arguments based on the fact that in their eyes you are an infidel? We do not 'hate' Muslims, we have shed much blood in their defense, and freedom. Calling the American public stupid is no way to further anything other than a show of how guilty you feel for being American in the first place, and a severe lack of understanding of Taqyaia. (sic)

    But as I said, it's a marathon, not a sprtint. It wouldn't have immedaitely recognizable rewards. The terrorist rhetoric didn't take hold overnight, either. My posiition is that relying on teh bullet to solve one's p[roblems will have immediate rewards, but only if one is unconcerned about long-term goals of actually winning the war on terror instead of being mired in the same mess 100, even 200 years form now.
    To realize that Islam has been at war with any that do not believe the same as they do, since their inception is naive. To think that terrorists can be coddled, or negotiated with in some pre 9/11 mindset is also equally naive.

    You should in the future think through before you just attack someone for not believing the same things that you believe. Your approach at present is an invite to get American's killed.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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