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Thread: Ground Zero Mosque On The Move?

  1. #411
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    You are playing a little bit fast and loose with your terms here, Tucker. Promoting a hard line on terror is advocating the DEATHS of hundreds of thousands, but your implication that those deaths would be murders is unfounded. We do not call it a murder when a criminal is executed, nor do we call it a murder when a soldier dies. Implicit in the use of the term "murder" is the underlying innocence of the targets in question. Those involved in terrorism AREN'T innocent, since they are actively plotting to murder, themselves, and to call their deaths "murder" is a rhetorical slight of hand that plays right into their agenda -- an agenda predicated upon the creation of false moral equivalencies.
    And those who commit terrorist acts would not consider what they do to be murder. What is technically murder differs from region to region because each rgion has different laws.

    And what aggravates the situation is the belief that they are at "war" with the West in general. In their ideological construct, what they do is not murder.

    But eitehr way, what precipitated this discussion was a specific stance taken by a certain subset of hard-liners about killing a civillian who espouses a certain ideology. Regardless of the ideology, such an act taken with what one who is very accurately described as a non-combatant would fit the realm of murder.

    It is true that many hard-line stances on terrorism leave the simple discussion of actual terrorism and often includes those who support terrorism ideologically. That's when the opposition to terrorism actually promotes terrorism itself, and creates a hypocritical foundation for that particular brand of hard-line stance.


    But you are correct that I should stick with using "deaths" or "killing" instead of "murder' since 'murder' is a variable term depending on a person's subjective morality and legal beliefs.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 09-22-10 at 12:51 PM.
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, i realize that supporting Shariia is not engaging in terrorism.....

    "The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth have sympathy with the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people, although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity".

    I'm obviously talking of the other one percent.
    ...

    Moving the goalposts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The initial claim was that 10 to 15 percent of Muslims worldwide are actively engaged in terrorism. I asked for evidence of this. You provided evidence that 99% of Britain's Muslims thought the 7/7 attackers were wrong. How does that validate the asinine claim that 150,000,000 to 225,000,000 Muslims are actively engaged in terrorism?

    Come back when you can provide anything that substantiates the inane claim.

  3. #413
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    ...

    Come back when you can provide anything that substantiates the inane claim.
    The "socal change" that is required is the indoctrination of Muslim youth in madrasas?

    Who is behind it? Once you give, the indoctrinated youth.... a target and moral relativism (lack of punishment) they will attack.

  4. #414
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    ...

    Moving the goalposts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The initial claim was that 10 to 15 percent of Muslims worldwide are actively engaged in terrorism. I asked for evidence of this. You provided evidence that 99% of Britain's Muslims thought the 7/7 attackers were wrong. How does that validate the asinine claim that 150,000,000 to 225,000,000 Muslims are actively engaged in terrorism?

    Come back when you can provide anything that substantiates the inane claim.

    Suppose you lay out what you will accept as definitive proof of this, because it is becoming clear that there may be more than 10% world wide. Consider:

    Robert Satloff takes apart a new book by John Esposito and Dalia Mogahed, both of them professional pro-Islam propagandists, published by the Gallup organization, where Mogehed is executive director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies. Satloff shows how, through fraudulent definition of the word "radical," the authors make it appear that a multi-year study of Muslim opinion worldwide showed that only seven percent of Muslims are radical, when, in reality, by any fair reading of the authors' own polling data, the correct number is 37 percent.

    The authors define Muslim radicals as those who say the 9/11 attack was "completely justified," which was seven percent of the sample. However, there were two other categories of respondents who said that the attack was at least partially justified, and they are labeled by the authors as "moderates." The first of those groups comprises 6.5 percent of the sample, the second comprises 23.1 percent. Further, the respondents in that last category, making up 23.1 percent, also said that they hate America, want to impose Sharia law, support suicide bombing, and oppose equal rights for women. Yet Esposito and Mogahed call them "moderates."

    How many radical Muslims are there in the world?
    or the original article:

    Similar arguments have been made before; some of this is true, some is rubbish, much is irrelevant. The real debate about the "clash of civilizations" is about whether a determined element of radical Muslims could, like the Bolsheviks, take control of their societies and lead them into conflict with the West. The question often revolves around a disputed data point: Of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims, how many are radicals? If the number is relatively small, then the fear of a clash is inflated; if the number is relatively large, then the nightmare might not be so outlandish after all.

    What gives Who Speaks for Islam? its aura of credibility is that its answers are allegedly based on hard data, not taxi-driver anecdotes from a quick visit to Cairo. The book draws on a mammoth, six-year effort to poll and interview tens of thousands of Muslims in more than 35 countries with Muslim majorities or substantial minorities. The polling sample, Esposito and Mogahed claim, represents "more than 90 percent of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims." To back up the claim, the book bears the name of the gold-standard of American polling firms, Gallup.

    The answer to that all-important question, the authors say, is 7 percent. That is the percentage of Muslims who told pollsters that the attacks of September 11, 2001, were "completely" justified and who said they view the United States unfavorably--the double-barreled litmus test devised by Esposito and Mogahed to determine who is radical and who isn't.

    The authors don't actually call even these people "radicals," however; the term they use is "politically radicalized," which implies that someone else is responsible for turning these otherwise ordinary Muslims into bin Laden sympathizers. By contrast, Muslims who said the 9/11 attacks were "not justified" they term "moderates."

    Just Like Us! Really? | The Weekly Standard
    So what will you accept as proof?


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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Suppose you lay out what you will accept as definitive proof of this, because it is becoming clear that there may be more than 10% world wide. Consider:



    or the original article:



    So what will you accept as proof?


    j-mac
    It's probably good to start by noting the difference between being "radicalized" and being "actively involved in terrorism". Assuming that there is a difference for you between these things.

    Because the evidence you are offering is for radicalized Muslims, not terrorists.
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    It's probably good to start by noting the difference between being "radicalized" and being "actively involved in terrorism". Assuming that there is a difference for you between these things.

    Because the evidence you are offering is for radicalized Muslims, not terrorists.

    the difference being that they haven't strapped on the bomb belt yet? Wow, maybe we don't want that to be the case, but to say that they haven't carried out terror acts so therefore they are "Moderates" is pure BS to me.

    j-mac
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  7. #417
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    And those who commit terrorist acts would not consider what they do to be murder. What is technically murder differs from region to region because each rgion has different laws.

    And what aggravates the situation is the belief that they are at "war" with the West in general. In their ideological construct, what they do is not murder.

    .

    Yet you live in the west, Tucker, and are furthering THEIR point of view as to what constitutes murder when you apply definitions according to their rationalizations.

    THis extreme moral relativism may seem to provide you with an easy out, but the mere fact you would have to rely on such tells me that you have exhausted any real argument you might come up with and are having to rely on one that is basically nihilistic in its application. Nothing really matters because we can define something according to its convenience to our arguments.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    the difference being that they haven't strapped on the bomb belt yet? Wow, maybe we don't want that to be the case, but to say that they haven't carried out terror acts so therefore they are "Moderates" is pure BS to me.

    j-mac
    Look at the question that was asked as the determinant. I can use the same type of question to paint the US as radicals:

    The US bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were:

    A. Completely justified
    B. At least partly justified
    C. Not at all justified

    I know that people will say that the rules of war were different back then, but really, why do we expect everyone to adopt the new rules and demonize them if they don't while simultaneously giving ourselves passes on two acts that were a lot worse as far as civilian casualties go?
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Yet you live in the west, Tucker, and are furthering THEIR point of view as to what constitutes murder when you apply definitions according to their rationalizations.
    Murder is not a universal term. It varies from region to region. It has no merit when applied in global terms at all and only serves to provide emotional fodder for arguments of no real substance.

    Nothing really matters because we can define something according to its convenience to our arguments.
    Ironically, that's what I'm arguing against here.

    It's people who shift the definitions so that their side never commits such actions while the other sides always commits such an action who have movable definitions. Mine are constant.

    Nowadays, due to the variability of people's definitions, using rhetoric like terrorism and murder only serve to promote emotion-laden arguments of no real merit.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 09-22-10 at 04:29 PM.
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    Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Look at the question that was asked as the determinant. I can use the same type of question to paint the US as radicals:

    The US bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were:

    A. Completely justified
    B. At least partly justified
    C. Not at all justified

    I know that people will say that the rules of war were different back then, but really, why do we expect everyone to adopt the new rules and demonize them if they don't while simultaneously giving ourselves passes on two acts that were a lot worse as far as civilian casualties go?

    I'd say that depends on whether or not you believe that the only use of an atomic device by the US in that World War, ended it, or was just a use or overuse of power. In any case I believe that the use saved lives by ending the war.

    I don't think you can compare the two unless you agree that we are at war with Islam.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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