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Ground Zero Mosque On The Move?

Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Degreez said:
Grant said:
1% does not equal 10%-15%.

Nice try, but once again you have failed miserably.
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I always said it was one percent according to the British survey, not ten or fifteen percent. Perhaps you should read through the survey and responses once more.
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Moot said:
The video is a sound byte of one radical Muslim fantasizing about the destruction of the US, but he doesn't represent the views 1.5 billion Muslims anymore than Glenn Beck represents the views of all conservatives. But isn't it ironic, both want the same thing.
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It is more than a "sound byte". And if you watchd the video you'd know it.

But the best recruiter of all for Islamic extremists was Bush when he called the war on a terror a "crusade" and then invaded Iraq under false pretenses.
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Oh, so Muslims became terrorists because George Bush used the word "Crusade", huh? Do you think they are oversensitive or just naturally barbaric? It seems they don;t need much encouragement if that's all it takes. Would you murder someone for using a particular word?

It seems you're only trying to change the subject, which is what the losing side always does.
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Grant said:
Oh, so Muslims became terrorists because George Bush used the word "Crusade", huh? Do you think they are oversensitive or just naturally barbaric? It seems they don;t need much encouragement if that's all it takes. Would you murder someone for using a particular word?
.
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Operation Cyclone was mostly to blame for the modern Islamic extremists we see today. And the years leading up the implementation of it.
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

expandmymind said:
Grant said:
Operation Cyclone was mostly to blame for the modern Islamic extremists we see today. And the years leading up the implementation of it.
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So the Americans deserved what happened on 9/11 because of operation cyclone?? And the British too on 7/7?

Maybe you could explain this justification further.
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Grant said:
expandmymind said:
So the Americans deserved what happened on 9/11 because of operation cyclone?? And the British too on 7/7?

Maybe you could explain this justification further.
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Please don't put words in my mouth.

During the Afghan War (and indeed it is said to have been planned in anticipation of that war) the CIA/US, whatever, funded, armed and trained, along with encouraged the migration of, extreme Islamists. When these Islamist/Jihadists won against the Soviets, it influenced the Arab World massively. Then they were left to their own devices while the US was continually operating in the region, propping up dictators and supporting brutal regimes.

It's not directly the fault of the US - You raise a dog (I'm not equating Arabs with dogs BTW) to attack, sometimes it'll bite the master. Especially if the master isn't the nicest.

But I do believe us British shot ourselves in the foot when we decided to fight a war that had nothing to do with us.
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Moot said:
The Iman Rauf didn't have anything to do with 9/11.
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I did not say he did. Him not being directly involved does not mean he wasn't dancing on his prayer rug when 9-11 took place.

Islam is a cult that PROMOTES MURDER, HATE AND THE SUBJUGATION OF OTHERS, they also are told that anything they do including lie, cheat and steal is okay as long as they get the result that shows praise for Allah.

So deception is a given. As has been said by others this word be analogous to the Japanese building a War Memorial for fallen Japanese Military on Ford Island Hawaii
near the site of Battleship Row.
Battleship_row.jpg


Try not defending a potential enemy it might be misunderstood by Patriots who could put one in the same category of Apologist in Chief Obama the "Great One" (NOT) and current leader of the blame America first club.

:ind:And the rocket red glare!

Those who stand for nothing fall for anything, and brothers and sisters that is foolish.

I am not verbally attacking the Presidency just pointing out the truth about Obama as I see it! By the way I am not alone in not trusting the "Trifecta of Doom," Obama, Pelosi, Reid,
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Degreez said:
Grant said:
1% does not equal 10%-15%.

Nice try, but once again you have failed miserably.
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You are failing miserably...

How many of the people in Iraq actively supported the insurgents or AQ? How much of the population actively support the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Lets expand the question by changing one of the conditions. How many passively support.... The difference being, a passive supporter won't go out of his way to participate, give aid, assistance, etc., but neither will he do anything to impede?
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Grant said:
Degreez said:
I always said it was one percent according to the British survey, not ten or fifteen percent. Perhaps you should read through the survey and responses once more.
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ric27 was the first to claim that there are 150,000,000 to 225,000,000 Muslims actively engaged in terrorism worldwide. When I refuted this fabrication, you responded with a survey that says 99% of British Muslims saw the 7/7 attacks as wrong, as if that was a rebuttal to there not being 10-15% of Muslims actively engaged in terrorism worldwide.
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

ric27 said:
You are failing miserably...
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The only fail is your fabricated claim that 150,000,000 to 225,000,000 Muslims are actively engaged in terrorism worldwide.
ric27 said:
How many of the people in Iraq actively supported the insurgents or AQ? How much of the population actively support the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Lets expand the question by changing one of the conditions. How many passively support.... The difference being, a passive supporter won't go out of his way to participate, give aid, assistance, etc., but neither will he do anything to impede?
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Moving the goalposts again? Your claim was that 10 to 15 percent of Muslims worldwide actively engage in terrorism. You have yet to substantiate this claim.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Grant said:
It is more than a "sound byte". And if you watchd the video you'd know it.
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I did watch the video and what I saw was a lone radical being exploited by MEMRI...and you. You have much in common with the muslim radical, you both want to destroy the US.

Oh, so Muslims became terrorists because George Bush used the word "Crusade", huh? Do you think they are oversensitive or just naturally barbaric? It seems they don;t need much encouragement if that's all it takes. Would you murder someone for using a particular word?

It seems you're only trying to change the subject, which is what the losing side always does.
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Why yes I do think Bush was the biggest recruiter for radical hatred against the US in the ME. I certainly don't see you denying it, but only trying to cover it up, excuse it or lay blame where it doesn't belong. You would make Goebbels proud the way you use propaganda and illogical fallacy to diminish civil debate and discussion. Very impressive, Grant.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Councilman said:
I did not say he did. Him not being directly involved does not mean he wasn't dancing on his prayer rug when 9-11 took place.
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Well, actually the Iman was not "dancing on his prayer rug" and was in fact helping the FBI and our government to seek out the radicals who helped to commit 9/11. The fact that the Iman has done more to help America fight against the radical Islamist extremists makes him more of an American than you could ever hope to be.

Islam is a cult that PROMOTES MURDER, HATE AND THE SUBJUGATION OF OTHERS, they also are told that anything they do including lie, cheat and steal is okay as long as they get the result that shows praise for Allah.
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The radicals in the tea party belong to a cult too, and they have the same agenda to promote violence, hate and subjugation of others and they too are told that lying, cheating and stealing is okay as long it shows praise for the Lord.

So deception is a given. As has been said by others this word be analogous to the Japanese building a War Memorial for fallen Japanese Military on Ford Island Hawaii
near the site of Battleship Row....
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No, it wouldn't. Not even close.

Try not defending a potential enemy it might be misunderstood by Patriots who could put one in the same category of Apologist in Chief Obama the "Great One" (NOT) and current leader of the blame America first club.
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We've got our hands full defending ourselves against an enemy right here on our own soil and they call themselves "patriots" but what they really are is radical far right extremists and rejects of civil society and if it weren't for wealthy elitists like the Bircher Koch's, funding and exploiting them for their own gain, the so called "patriots" would still be living under the rocks they crawled out from.

:ind:And the rocket red glare!

Those who stand for nothing fall for anything, and brothers and sisters that is foolish.
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Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, because..."Where they burn books, they will in the end burn people." - Heinrich Heine

I am not verbally attacking the Presidency just pointing out the truth about Obama as I see it! By the way I am not alone in not trusting the "Trifecta of Doom," Obama, Pelosi, Reid,
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Well, that kind of ignorance is like an infectious disease spread by vermin, so it's not surprising that you aren't the only one with the disease.
 
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Please don't put words in my mouth.
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Beg pardon. That appeared to be the conclusion.

During the Afghan War (and indeed it is said to have been planned in anticipation of that war) the CIA/US, whatever, funded, armed and trained, along with encouraged the migration of, extreme Islamists.
Click to expand...

How do you recognize "extreme Islamics"?
When these Islamist/Jihadists won against the Soviets, it influenced the Arab World massively.
Click to expand...

In what way?

Then they were left to their own devices while the US was continually operating in the region, propping up dictators and supporting brutal regimes.
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Perhaps you can give a couple of examples here. It seems that most of the Islamic world is run by dictators, with or without the "propping up" of the United States.

It's not directly the fault of the US - You raise a dog (I'm not equating Arabs with dogs BTW) to attack, sometimes it'll bite the master. Especially if the master isn't the nicest.
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So the Americans shouldn't help anyone. Does this pertain just to the Muslim world or is that a general rule?
But I do believe us British shot ourselves in the foot when we decided to fight a war that had nothing to do with us.
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Quite right. And the next time you go looking for help from anyone in North America, Canadians or Americans, you may as well shoot yourselves in the other foot. I'm coming to regret Canada's involvement in WWII and expect many of your former Allies feel the same.
 
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Moot said:
I did watch the video and what I saw was a lone radical being exploited by MEMRI...and you. You have much in common with the muslim radical, you both want to destroy the US.
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You obviously never watched the video or you wouldn't have said "lone radical" People were applauding so he obviously wasn't alone. Do you want to see more videos of "lone radicals"? Do you feel there is only this one? What makes you think i want to destroy the United States? Are you reading between the lines again?

Why yes I do think Bush was the biggest recruiter for radical hatred against the US in the ME.
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So you don't know that there was terrorism well before 9/11? Or that the US was attacked on previous occasions before he was elected? Do you think 7/7 was a result of George Bush or the attacks in Bali, Israel, Nairobi, etc?

"I certainly don't see you denying it, but only trying to cover it up, excuse it or lay blame where it doesn't belong".

Why not use quotes?
You would make Goebbels proud the way you use propaganda and illogical fallacy to diminish civil debate and discussion. Very impressive, Grant.
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You really don't know how the quote system works, do you?
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Degreez said:
The only fail is your fabricated claim that 150,000,000 to 225,000,000 Muslims are actively engaged in terrorism worldwide.
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I don't think it is much of a stretch at all to say that 85 - 90% of all significant terrorist incidents in the last 50 years have been perpetrated by Muslim terrorists and their supporters in the name of Islam.

Nope, 85 - 90% ain't much of a stretch at all. We didn't hear Pentacostals saying, "We won't rest until the White House is destroyed." I believe it was a Muslim male, age 17-50, from known target countries. We can take them at their word unless there is evidence to the contrary

Moving the goalposts again? Your claim was that 10 to 15 percent of Muslims worldwide actively engage in terrorism. You have yet to substantiate this claim.
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It doesn't matter if there are 100 or 1 billion, 10 - 15 % is not a stretch. We have to go with what we know. How do we know - they are active. If they are not committing incidents, then they are not yet terrorists by definition. Now, look at the incidents.

Chechnya: Islamic International Peacekeeping Brigade, Special Purpose Islamic Regiment, Movsar Baryayev Gang (he was fundalmentalist), Riyad us-Saliheyn Martyrs' Brigade, AQ, etc, etc

You are not going to convert the True Believer.
 
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Grant said:
You obviously never watched the video or you wouldn't have said "lone radical" People were applauding so he obviously wasn't alone. Do you want to see more videos of "lone radicals"? Do you feel there is only this one?
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Obviously you didn't watch the video because there was only one radical Muslim speaking. ONE Muslim does not 1.5 BILLION Muslims make. I'm not interested in seeing anymore cherry picked selected videos by MEMRI. But would you like to see how Muslims are assimilating in the US inspite of your hate mongering against Muslims?

Meet Miss USA, Rima Fakih an Arab Muslim...
4615785688_1fb8435d15.jpg


What makes you think i want to destroy the United States? Are you reading between the lines again?
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Your nationalist ethnic cleansing propaganda is the same as the Nazi's, that's why I think you are trying to destroy my country, Mr. Canuck.

So you don't know that there was terrorism well before 9/11? Or that the US was attacked on previous occasions before he was elected? Do you think 7/7 was a result of George Bush or the attacks in Bali, Israel, Nairobi, etc?
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So you don't know about "collateral damage?" What do you expect from such arrogant US foreign policy, kisses and roses?

"I certainly don't see you denying it, but only trying to cover it up, excuse it or lay blame where it doesn't belong".

Why not use quotes?

You really don't know how the quote system works, do you?
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Interesting, you still aren't denying it.
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Moot said:
Obviously you didn't watch the video because there was only one radical Muslim speaking. ONE Muslim does not 1.5 BILLION Muslims make. I'm not interested in seeing anymore cherry picked selected videos by MEMRI.
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And yet a video with a few idiots at a tea party rally is proof that all conservatives are idiots.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

RightinNYC said:
And yet a video with a few idiots at a tea party rally is proof that all conservatives are idiots.
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Meh, I think it's a lot more than just one video at one little rally.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Moot said:
Meh, I think it's a lot more than just one video at one little rally.
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an-ec-dote [an-ik-doht] –noun
a short account of a particular incident or event of an interesting or amusing nature, often biographical. pl. form: data
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Something about that seems wrong.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

ric27 said:
I don't think it is much of a stretch at all to say that 85 - 90% of all significant terrorist incidents in the last 50 years have been perpetrated by Muslim terrorists and their supporters in the name of Islam.

Nope, 85 - 90% ain't much of a stretch at all. We didn't hear Pentacostals saying, "We won't rest until the White House is destroyed." I believe it was a Muslim male, age 17-50, from known target countries. We can take them at their word unless there is evidence to the contrary



It doesn't matter if there are 100 or 1 billion, 10 - 15 % is not a stretch. We have to go with what we know. How do we know - they are active. If they are not committing incidents, then they are not yet terrorists by definition. Now, look at the incidents.

Chechnya: Islamic International Peacekeeping Brigade, Special Purpose Islamic Regiment, Movsar Baryayev Gang (he was fundalmentalist), Riyad us-Saliheyn Martyrs' Brigade, AQ, etc, etc

You are not going to convert the True Believer.
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"We have to go with what we know". Except you have already proven you fabricated the claim. Therefore, you do not even know, so have absolutely nothing to go on.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Grant said:
It would not be an "attempt".

Why would anyone be terrified? He is encouraging his followers to murder at least 300,000 Americans. Shouldn't they expect a response?

But, even if these people might be terrified following his assassination, wouldn't it be worth it to prevent the murder 300,000 Americans?
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Everyone who supports acts of terrorism believes that the acts are justified.

They all have their own rationalizations for their beliefs, but ultimately they all buy into the "ends justify the means" mindset when the ends are something they feel strong enough about.

Ultimately, everyone has something that they would justify acts of terror for because there is always something someone cares enough about that they would be willing to believe that the ends justify the means for that situation.

And assasinating him wouldn't save 300,000 American lives. IMO, that's a very naive mindset.

Have you watched the video?
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Of course. The contents of the video have no affect on my argument, though.

Even if I agree with the conclusion that the world would be a better place with this douchebag in a pine box, I don't believe the ends would justify the means in this instance.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

And assasinating him wouldn't save 300,000 American lives. IMO, that's a very naive mindset.
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Many in the West are justifiably fearful of criticizing Muslims because of the ongoing death threats, often successful. There seems no reason why the democracies, in order to minimize threats and acts of terrorism, should not have the same policy.


Of course. The contents of the video have no affect on my argument, though.
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There are many more such videos and I don't think we should be complacent about them.

Even if I agree with the conclusion that the world would be a better place with this douchebag in a pine box, I don't believe the ends would justify the means in this instance
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.

Is your theory that they are not very serious and that its all talk?

I believe that they are serious, their history shows that, and we should respond accordingly. Targeting individuals who speak out for terrorism would ultimately save a lot of lives..
 
Personally, I refuse to be drawn into this phony crap-slinging fight again. It's really fairly simple, either you take a stand to abide by the principles this Nation was built upon, or you don't. Either the Constitution and the rule of law apply to all equally, or they mean nothing. Period. I KNOW where I stand and it damn sure isn't with hate-mongers and bigots.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Grant said:
Many in the West are justifiably fearful of criticizing Muslims because of the ongoing death threats, often successful. There seems no reason why the democracies, in order to minimize threats and acts of terrorism, should not have the same policy.
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I'm confused. How would being willing to engage in acts of terrorism lead to a minimization of acts of terrorism? It seems as though such an approach would increase the overall number of acts of terrorism, not decrease them.


There are many more such videos and I don't think we should be complacent about them.
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I know there are many such videos, and there are also many videos of the reverse (people who are on "our" side who have similar types of views as this guy has).

I also don't believe that complacency is the answer. But I also believe that the options are far more varied than simply being "complacency" vs. "assasination/terrorism in response to supporting terrorism". :shrug:

Is your theory that they are not very serious and that its all talk?
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No. I think he believes his motives are good and true. Just like those who oppose him think their motives are good and true.

My personal is that we shouldn't engage in the same tactics if we are going to demonize them for those tactics. If we don't demonize their tactics, then we lose no "moral" high ground by engaging in the same tactics.

I believe that they are serious, their history shows that, and we should respond accordingly. Targeting individuals who speak out for terrorism would ultimately save a lot of lives..
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I disagree with the conclusion. I believe that it will escalate the situation. I think that our own short-sighted immediate-gratification policies have led to the mess we are dealing with in regards to terrorism. I think that continuing to engage in similar short-sighted immediate-gratification policies is folly.
 
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