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Ground Zero Mosque On The Move?

Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

It ended the war which in the long run means lives saved over all.


j-mac

Even though the radiation from these bombs kept on killing for quite some time with cancer and such? Some estimates of the total death toll are quite high.


And how can you be so sure that it prevented deaths in a way that alternative means would not have if there were no alternatives attempted? (The Soviet's declaring war on Japan being one example that didn't have much time before the second bomb was dropped to determine efficacy)
 
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Even though the radiation from these bombs kept on killing for quite some time with cancer and such? Some estimates of the total death toll are quite high.


And how can you be so sure that it prevented deaths in a way that alternative means would not have if there were no alternatives attempted? (The Soviet's declaring war on Japan being one example that didn't have much time before the second bomb was dropped to determine efficacy)


But we are not left with what if's, only what actually happened, and the result was the ending of the war. A good thing.


j-mac
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

But we are not left with what if's, only what actually happened, and the result was the ending of the war. A good thing.


j-mac

The Nuclear Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a purely political decision.

Someone eloquantly put it, that those bombs were meant for Moscow. The US was afraid that the Communists could push further into Europe and start a new war with the west. The demostration of the A-Bomb ensured that, that would never happen. The Soviets would never screw with the states, with that firepower behind them.

We could discuss the morality of it till the end of time. No point in that.

But reasons for doing something are not always black and white.

Japanese communications intercepted by Intelligence officials indicated the Japanese Empire was days away from Surrendering...
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

But we are not left with what if's, only what actually happened, and the result was the ending of the war. A good thing.


j-mac

You are th eone who used a what if, though. I'm talking about actual deaths that went on for a prolonged period becuse of those bombs.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Even though the radiation from these bombs kept on killing for quite some time with cancer and such? Some estimates of the total death toll are quite high.

Japan and the Japanese are disgusting in their efforts to rewrite history and ignore the atrocities they committed while moaning about their status as the sole victims of nuclear attack.

I call bull****

Japan 1935-1945 is not Japan today. Addressing then specifically, they didn't have a high regard for life that wasn't Japanese. They were in perfect agreement with Nazi Germany regarding a Master Race, only it was Japanese. All other races were inferior. Japanese leadership was successful in creating a widespread "Bushido" spirit in the military, when it had previously applied only to Samurai, and even then, it wasn't as universal as portrayed by movies and myth. But in the context of WWII, it meant that an enemy who surrendered dropped in status even further.

Now the big picture.....If Japan had developed atomic weapons, I have absolutely no doubt like many others here in these forums that they would have used them with great glee wherever and whenever they could for as long as they had weapons. They showed no hesitation when it came to bayonetting and beheading men, women, children and babies simply for sport.

They even had challenges between Japanese Army officers in Nanking and written up with great pride in the Japanese Army newspaper. What was the challenge you ask? Who could behead the most Chinese in a single minute. So they went out and just gathered up a couple of hundred men and lined them up to be beheaded.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Japan and the Japanese are disgusting in their efforts to rewrite history and ignore the atrocities they committed while moaning about their status as the sole victims of nuclear attack.

I call bull****

Japan 1935-1945 is not Japan today. Addressing then specifically, they didn't have a high regard for life that wasn't Japanese. They were in perfect agreement with Nazi Germany regarding a Master Race, only it was Japanese. All other races were inferior. Japanese leadership was successful in creating a widespread "Bushido" spirit in the military, when it had previously applied only to Samurai, and even then, it wasn't as universal as portrayed by movies and myth. But in the context of WWII, it meant that an enemy who surrendered dropped in status even further.

Now the big picture.....If Japan had developed atomic weapons, I have absolutely no doubt like many others here in these forums that they would have used them with great glee wherever and whenever they could for as long as they had weapons. They showed no hesitation when it came to bayonetting and beheading men, women, children and babies simply for sport.

They even had challenges between Japanese Army officers in Nanking and written up with great pride in the Japanese Army newspaper. What was the challenge you ask? Who could behead the most Chinese in a single minute. So they went out and just gathered up a couple of hundred men and lined them up to be beheaded.

International Military Tribunal for the Far East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obviously as in Nazi Germany, not all could be brought to justice.

But many higher ranking Japanese officials were.

Everyone is well aware of the crimes they committed by their armed forces.

However one COULD argue, the vast majority of deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Civillian who did not commit those attrocities... Just sayin...

In fact my dad visited Hiroshima. And the museum there does not put blame on the United States or demonize them. The Japanese government and the spirit of Hiroshima merely wishes that Nuclear Weapons never have to be used again in Human Conflict.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

The Nuclear Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a purely political decision.
.

1 Hiroshima was a military target

2 Nagasaki was a major port and contained extensive shipyards and repair facilities.

Had Japan not surrendered unconditionally, we would have continued to bomb their cities with atomic weapons and incendiary bombs until they either did surrender or there was no one left to oppose our landings. Period
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Japan and the Japanese are disgusting in their efforts to rewrite history and ignore the atrocities they committed while moaning about their status as the sole victims of nuclear attack.

I call bull****

Japan 1935-1945 is not Japan today. Addressing then specifically, they didn't have a high regard for life that wasn't Japanese. They were in perfect agreement with Nazi Germany regarding a Master Race, only it was Japanese. All other races were inferior. Japanese leadership was successful in creating a widespread "Bushido" spirit in the military, when it had previously applied only to Samurai, and even then, it wasn't as universal as portrayed by movies and myth. But in the context of WWII, it meant that an enemy who surrendered dropped in status even further.

Now the big picture.....If Japan had developed atomic weapons, I have absolutely no doubt like many others here in these forums that they would have used them with great glee wherever and whenever they could for as long as they had weapons. They showed no hesitation when it came to bayonetting and beheading men, women, children and babies simply for sport.

They even had challenges between Japanese Army officers in Nanking and written up with great pride in the Japanese Army newspaper. What was the challenge you ask? Who could behead the most Chinese in a single minute. So they went out and just gathered up a couple of hundred men and lined them up to be beheaded.

What do their actions have to do with our deliberate targetting and killing of civilians with those bombs? :confused:
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

What do their actions have to do with our deliberate targetting and killing of civilians with those bombs? :confused:

Japan was fought as a total war. There were no safe zones for the enemy. The US waged war to destroy their armies, air forces, naval forces and means of production. We also bombed cities and when it was decided that high explosive was not quite the right tool for the job, we switched to incendiary bombs because most of Japanese homes were made largely of wood and paper so, they burn really, really nice. And if you get a really big fire underway, it creates a firestorm. The rising heat and air creates a vacuum that sucks in air from miles around to feed the inferno. Basically, we did NOT **** around. It was tit for tat in those days....The intention was to sap the will of the people to fight

Should we now go and apologize to Japan for bombing their cities? Maybe Japan should apologized because Japan was the aggressor and started the war.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

What do their actions have to do with our deliberate targetting and killing of civilians with those bombs? :confused:

Tucker, WWII Was a different kind of war. The great failure of looking at History, is to try and JUDGE History with modern thinking. You will fail miserably. Which is exactly what you are doing now.

Why did we nuke them? To win the war. Did that mean killing civilians, yep. Why? Cause that's how war HAD ALWAYS been fought, throughout history.

Today, we can be far more circumspect, too much so really, but we don't need to firebomb a city to take out the factories. We can put a 2k lbs. bomb through the WINDOW of our choice.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Suppose you lay out what you will accept as definitive proof of this, because it is becoming clear that there may be more than 10% world wide. Consider:

or the original article:

So what will you accept as proof?
j-mac
Is that supposed to be proof that there 150,000,000 to 225,000,000 Muslims actively engaged in terrorism worldwide?

Because your questionable source does not even comment on how many Muslims are actively engaged in terrorism. It touches on how many are "radical", as if there was an accurate measurement for it. The original claim by ric27 was that there are 10 to 15 percent of the entire Muslim population that is actively engaged in terrorism. You, nor Grant, nor ric27 have substantiated that claim. Grant offered a poll that said 40% of British Muslims want Sharia law applied to predominantly Muslim areas. The same poll stated that 99% of British Muslims saw the 7/7 attacks as wrong. You have offered a questionable source that only states that a certain percentage of Muslims are "radical". I call it questionable because the author is a blogger and a closet racist who has made these same statements:

"I care about the white race. It is the source of and is inseparable from everything we are, everything we have, and everything our civilization has achieved."

On May 4, 2007 Auster was expelled from FrontPage Magazine, because of the controversy over an article he wrote in which he complained that "[e]ach story of black on white rape is reported in isolation, not presented as part of a larger pattern" and that "white women in this country are being targeted by black rapists."
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Tucker, WWII Was a different kind of war. The great failure of looking at History, is to try and JUDGE History with modern thinking. You will fail miserably. Which is exactly what you are doing now.

Why did we nuke them? To win the war. Did that mean killing civilians, yep. Why? Cause that's how war HAD ALWAYS been fought, throughout history.

Today, we can be far more circumspect, too much so really, but we don't need to firebomb a city to take out the factories. We can put a 2k lbs. bomb through the WINDOW of our choice.

You've got the order of the "judging" wrong Vicchio. I'm not judging history with modern thinking. If anything, I'm judging modern actions with historical thinking.

Specifically, Let's look at the bolded section of your post. If that is true, and it justifies our past behaviors, and the only thing that makes it so that does not apply anymore is the underlined bit, then we have to say that our enemies, who don't have the ability to "put a 2k lbs. bomb through the WINDOW of thier choice." are still bound by the same rules as that which is bolded, no?

I'm saying we can't have it both ways. It can't be "evil" when they do it while being "good" (or at least "the way it's always been done") when we did it.

Ironically, I'm the one who is accused of moral relativism when my arguments are not based on my subective agreeing or disagreeing with the action. If 9/11 was terrorism, then Nagasaki was terrorism. Plain and simple. Just because the word came about later doesn't change the fact that it is still applicable in retrospect.

What we come to, which most peopel are unwilling to admit, is that the ultimate reality of an even-handed definition is that we either have to condemn all terrorist actions as evil (including those that have been to the USA's benefit) or acknowledge that sometimes terrorism is OK.

I lean towards taking the former stance because I don't think terrorism is OK even when it's done by my country.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

I don't understand how the people defending the vaporizing of 100,000 civilians by calling them "acceptable casualties" can then go on to whine about how Hamas shoots a rocket into Israel.

I mean look at this statement:

MrV said:
Why did we nuke them? To win the war. Did that mean killing civilians, yep. Why? Cause that's how war HAD ALWAYS been fought, throughout history.

Doesn't sound too dissimilar to Hamas' justification.

Then again, we all know that the people that are crazy enough to defend the mass murder of Hiroshima/Nagasaki have selective morality. Whatever suits their interests is of course acceptable and justifiable in their eyes, whether it's the dropping of a nuclear bomb on civilians, the massacre of Iraqi civilians and civilian infrastructure, the support of Hamid Karzai in Afghanistan, etc...
 
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Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Then again, we all know that the people that are crazy enough to defend the mass murder of Hiroshima/Nagasaki have selective morality.

No **** sherlock. **** with the bull and you get the horns.

In this case, payback was not one, but two mushroom clouds rising over the ruins of cities in your country.
A country that declared war on us.

Read up on (I'll use wiki to make you feel at home)

Nanking Massacre Nanking Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bataan Death March Bataan Death March - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Manchurian POW camps where POWs suffered vivisection without anesthesia and the local population were guinea pigs for germ warfare trials and the other evil war crimes of Unit 731 Unit 731 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Enslavement of thousands of Korean "comfort girls" (all Asians estimate at 200k and up to 410k by Chinese)..and Dutch women captured in Indonesia were sent to Japanese military brothels too!

Enslavement of POWs throughout the Pacific

Execution of Doolittle's men captured after the bombing of Tokyo (3 executed and 1 starved to death) and execution of approximately 250,000 Chinese civilians for aiding them

The widespread, endemic, and acculturated perpetration of war crimes by Japanese armed forces in WW2
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Me said:
Then again, we all know that the people that are crazy enough to defend the mass murder of Hiroshima/Nagasaki have selective morality.

No **** sherlock.

:D At least some of them openly wear their hypocrisy on their sleeve.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

No **** sherlock. **** with the bull and you get the horns.

In this case, payback was not one, but two mushroom clouds rising over the ruins of cities in your country.
A country that declared war on us.

Read up on (I'll use wiki to make you feel at home)

Nanking Massacre Nanking Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bataan Death March Bataan Death March - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Manchurian POW camps where POWs suffered vivisection without anesthesia and the local population were guinea pigs for germ warfare trials and the other evil war crimes of Unit 731 Unit 731 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Enslavement of thousands of Korean "comfort girls" (all Asians estimate at 200k and up to 410k by Chinese)..and Dutch women captured in Indonesia were sent to Japanese military brothels too!

Enslavement of POWs throughout the Pacific

Execution of Doolittle's men captured after the bombing of Tokyo (3 executed and 1 starved to death) and execution of approximately 250,000 Chinese civilians for aiding them

The widespread, endemic, and acculturated perpetration of war crimes by Japanese armed forces in WW2

See the part I made bold?

Do you believe targeting civilians for political purposes is terrorism?

Do you believe killing numerous civilians at once is a war crime?
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

See the part I made bold?

Do you believe targeting civilians for political purposes is terrorism?

Do you believe killing numerous civilians at once is a war crime?

About WWII? Well, for good or ill, we've changed (fast forward) and go out of our way to avoid killing civilians....and yes, civilians get killed, but they are not attacked directly. Civilian deaths have occurred when the enemy deliberatly places military equipment/troopw/hardware among civilians so as to produce the civilian casualties.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

:2usflag:

It is curious how many think they can re-write History when it comes to what took place to end the war and the action of the Japanese and Germans and Soviets that motivated the actions of Harry Truman.

The atrocities of the Japanese are well documented and include what became known as the Rape of Nanking China in 1937 & 38 and they killed over 100,00 Innocent men women and children, or the massive amount of death and torture in the Philippines, or the torture of our POWs in every theater in which they fought the Japanese.

I was studying History when I was about 12 or so when I found out they were Japanese. Up until them I had only heard them referred to as damn Japs by all the Veterans Of the South Pacific war I grew up listening to in San Diego, including my dad who was nearly killed more than once.

Many of you who feel the dropping of the A-bombs was unnecessary apparenty never payed any attention to the estimates of up to 1,000,000 American soldiers they figure would be casualties.

And at least that many Japanese Civilians who were being trained to resist at all costs with pointed bamboo sticks and other primitive but potentially deadly weapons.

They also never seem to mention that the Japanese terror weapon used against us the Japanese constructed 9,000 large hydrogen balloons, crafted from mulberry paper, glued together with potato starch paste. They were 33 feet across and could lift approximately 1,000 pounds, but the lethal portion of their cargo was a 33 pound anti-personnel fragmentation bomb, attached to a 64–foot long fuse.

They were found in Alaska, Washington, Oregon, California, Arizona, Idaho, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, Texas, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, Michigan and Iowa, as well as Mexico and Canada. The last one was launched in April 1945. The last known discovery of a functional fire balloon in North America was in 1955 - its payload still lethal even after 10 years! Japanese balloon bombs were discovered on American soil as late as 1992!

Thank God they only killed A smal number of school children and I believe their teacher.

Scientists have estimated that as many as 300 balloon bombs may still be scattered throughout remote areas of western United States!

People also forget that the fire bombing of Tokyo Killed more people in one night than either A-bombs.

In short War is hell and will always be the fight against terror needs to be stepped up close to the levels of WW-II and stop ***** footing around with namby pamby rules of engagement that just get our kids killed.

The Imam behind the NYC Mosque is rubbing our noses in the dust of the towers and Obama's response was dead wrong. We know what the Constitution says and that is not the issue here it has to do with something the liberals are usually quick to scream about. That being sensitivity to the feeling of others.

Don't we hear that all the time when we're being to we are intolerant of too many things such as Gays?

Sorry to on a major rant but I am tired of people who have to clue going off on our nation and the actions of our brave men and Women in the Military past and present.

:ind:
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

:2usflag:

It is curious how many think they can re-write History when it comes to what took place to end the war and the action of the Japanese and Germans and Soviets that motivated the actions of Harry Truman.

The atrocities of the Japanese are well documented and include what became known as the Rape of Nanking China in 1937 & 38 and they killed over 100,00 Innocent men women and children, or the massive amount of death and torture in the Philippines, or the torture of our POWs in every theater in which they fought the Japanese.

I was studying History when I was about 12 or so when I found out they were Japanese. Up until them I had only heard them referred to as damn Japs by all the Veterans Of the South Pacific war I grew up listening to in San Diego, including my dad who was nearly killed more than once.

Many of you who feel the dropping of the A-bombs was unnecessary apparenty never payed any attention to the estimates of up to 1,000,000 American soldiers they figure would be casualties.

And at least that many Japanese Civilians who were being trained to resist at all costs with pointed bamboo sticks and other primitive but potentially deadly weapons.

They also never seem to mention that the Japanese terror weapon used against us the Japanese constructed 9,000 large hydrogen balloons, crafted from mulberry paper, glued together with potato starch paste. They were 33 feet across and could lift approximately 1,000 pounds, but the lethal portion of their cargo was a 33 pound anti-personnel fragmentation bomb, attached to a 64–foot long fuse.

They were found in Alaska, Washington, Oregon, California, Arizona, Idaho, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, Texas, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, Michigan and Iowa, as well as Mexico and Canada. The last one was launched in April 1945. The last known discovery of a functional fire balloon in North America was in 1955 - its payload still lethal even after 10 years! Japanese balloon bombs were discovered on American soil as late as 1992!

Thank God they only killed A smal number of school children and I believe their teacher.

Scientists have estimated that as many as 300 balloon bombs may still be scattered throughout remote areas of western United States!

People also forget that the fire bombing of Tokyo Killed more people in one night than either A-bombs.

In short War is hell and will always be the fight against terror needs to be stepped up close to the levels of WW-II and stop ***** footing around with namby pamby rules of engagement that just get our kids killed.

The Imam behind the NYC Mosque is rubbing our noses in the dust of the towers and Obama's response was dead wrong. We know what the Constitution says and that is not the issue here it has to do with something the liberals are usually quick to scream about. That being sensitivity to the feeling of others.

Don't we hear that all the time when we're being to we are intolerant of too many things such as Gays?

Sorry to on a major rant but I am tired of people who have to clue going off on our nation and the actions of our brave men and Women in the Military past and present.

:ind:


The Iman Rauf didn't have anything to do with 9/11.
 
If the so called Mosque isn’t being built at ground zero then why is it called, oh never mind.
 
If the so called Mosque isn’t being built at ground zero then why is it called, oh never mind.
It's called the Cordoba Mosque and it isn't being built at ground zero.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Teh assasination in question would be an attempt to instill terror in the extremist Muslim population by killing one of their religious leaders.

It would not be an "attempt".

Why would anyone be terrified? He is encouraging his followers to murder at least 300,000 Americans. Shouldn't they expect a response?

But, even if these people might be terrified following his assassination, wouldn't it be worth it to prevent the murder 300,000 Americans?

Have you watched the video?
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Is that supposed to be proof that there 150,000,000 to 225,000,000 Muslims actively engaged in terrorism worldwide?
. You, nor Grant, nor ric27 have substantiated that claim. Grant offered a poll that said 40% of British Muslims want Sharia law applied to predominantly Muslim areas. The same poll stated that 99% of British Muslims saw the 7/7 attacks as wrong.

Tht's right which means one percent think iy right/

So you can work from there that one percent of British Muslims thing it right as well as one percent of Muslims in the world.

Of course with those Muslims who have only been raised on Islamic anti Infidel anti Democratic teachings, the percentage might be a great deal higher than one per cent.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

Tht's right which means one percent think iy right/

So you can work from there that one percent of British Muslims thing it right as well as one percent of Muslims in the world.

Of course with those Muslims who have only been raised on Islamic anti Infidel anti Democratic teachings, the percentage might be a great deal higher than one per cent.

1% does not equal 10%-15%.

Nice try, but once again you have failed miserably.
 
Re: Mosque in new york to possibly move!

It would not be an "attempt".

Why would anyone be terrified? He is encouraging his followers to murder at least 300,000 Americans. Shouldn't they expect a response?

But, even if these people might be terrified following his assassination, wouldn't it be worth it to prevent the murder 300,000 Americans?

Have you watched the video?
The video is a sound byte of one radical Muslim fantasizing about the destruction of the US, but he doesn't represent the views 1.5 billion Muslims anymore than Glenn Beck represents the views of all conservatives. But isn't it ironic, both want the same thing.

But the best recruiter of all for Islamic extremists was Bush when he called the war on a terror a "crusade" and then invaded Iraq under false pretenses.
 
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