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Thread: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Well there are several problems with this idea. Yes quid pro quo with doubter nations would be needed to secure sanctions, but getting those quid pro quo agreements with the 5 veto carrying nations will be hard. China needs Iran's oil, and Russia are big business partners of Iran, along with some European countries including France (somewhat). This is historical, like it was in Iraq. Getting them to stop trading with Iran during these times will not be easy and it is not like the US is able to provide any alternatives.

    But would it not be better if Iran had no reason to build nukes?

    The main arguments so far by Iran has been, that Iran has a right to nuclear power. This is true, you cant deny a country nuclear power and why are the west (especially the US and Israel) so after them? Brazil has a new nuclear program and can easily make nukes if they wanted, but you dont see the US go after them. And Brazil would not allow international investigators to look at their nuke program.. they have denied it so far as far as I know. Hell the US would deny international inspectors to their nuclear sites too..

    Another argument has been also that even though Iran says they dont want nukes, in principle it is no ones business if they did want them since it is not a crime to have nukes and hide it... look at Israel. Domestically this fly's big time among the masses and frankly as an outsider, it is a very valid argument. There is a huge double standard going on here.

    If the world wants to have a check on nuclear weapons then all countries must be treated in the same way and submit to the same conditions and scrutiny... problem is they are not. And because of this double standard, the Iranian regime has the high ground domestically, and in many ways also internationally when it comes to the 2 or 3 key veto carrying UNSC members.

    And for the record, I wish the death of the Iranian regime and I fear them and always have, and in no way do I want them to have nukes. Religious extremists of any religion are bad. But we cant treat countries differently just because we disagree with the way they run their own affairs.. or we should not at least... as it causes too many problems.
    Brazil, hasn't stated an intent to use them against their enemies. If Iran had a secular government, democratically elected, and free of religious influence, then I have no doubt your analysis would be accurate. Comparing apples to oranges is a weak strawman.


    Tim-
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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Brazil, hasn't stated an intent to use them against their enemies. If Iran had a secular government, democratically elected, and free of religious influence, then I have no doubt your analysis would be accurate. Comparing apples to oranges is a weak strawman.


    Tim-
    Doesn't Pakistan (you know, those who support the Talibans and who probably hide OBL) possess nukes?

    Furthermore I'm not sure that Israel (the "Jewish state") is 100% free of any religious influence.

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Doesn't Pakistan (you know, those who support the Talibans and who probably hide OBL) possess nukes?

    Furthermore I'm not sure that Israel (the "Jewish state") is 100% free of any religious influence.


    Yep they do posses them, and they have them because India has them. Next..

    100%, probably not, but then, what nation is a 100% free of religious influence? I think you knew what I meant. The Jews are not calling for the total annihilation of an entire people simply because they have a different religion..

    Tim-
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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Brazil, hasn't stated an intent to use them against their enemies.
    Nor has Iran. And no "wiping Israel off the map" is not the same as threatening them with nukes.

    If Iran had a secular government, democratically elected, and free of religious influence, then I have no doubt your analysis would be accurate. Comparing apples to oranges is a weak strawman.
    The US aint secular.. nor is Israel. One could even question the democracies of both to a degree, and there is no doubt that there is massive religious influence in both. So you were saying?

    I get that you dont like the Iranian nutters, nor do I. But I also dont like the US nutters, or the Israeli nutters, the German nutters, French, Spanish, Chinese and so on nutters.. I find religious influence on politics dangerous regardless of the religion and country. But as long as we allow it one place with no problems and not another place just because we disagree with their methods then we are freaking hypocrites.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Yep they do posses them, and they have them because India has them. Next..
    And Iran "has them or wants them" because Israel "has them"... next...
    PeteEU

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Yep they do posses them, and they have them because India has them. Next..
    That does not make sense

    100%, probably not, but then, what nation is a 100% free of religious influence? I think you knew what I meant. The Jews are not calling for the total annihilation of an entire people simply because they have a different religion..

    Tim-
    Iran does not plan to conquer anything, in 300 years I don't think they've ever started a war. They just plan to defend themselves, and nukes are an appropriate way to do so. Just look at a map of the M/E, there are US bases everywhere around them, and both the US and the Israeli presidents talk about bombing them every week.

    It's not because they're religious or because they're a dictatorship that they're retards, everyone knows the purpose of a nuke isn't to attack. Both Stalin and Mao had nukes, both looked at least as crazy as Ahmadinejad, yet they never used them.

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Doesn't Pakistan (you know, those who support the Talibans and who probably hide OBL) possess nukes?
    I would have thought Pakistan is a far greater risk - just as well Iran and those Al Qaeda types don't get on.
    Last edited by alexa; 08-18-10 at 01:50 PM.
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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    But would it not be better if Iran had no reason to build nukes?
    The objective is to foster agreement under which Iran would not pursue nuclear weapons. An agreement that would allow Iran a civil nuclear program, provide rigorous verification to address international concerns, and possibly ensure no military aid to factions within Iran or military operations for "regime change" is realistic.

    Unfortunately, I don't believe this is what Iran is seeking. President Ahmadinejad's rhetoric suggests that the nuclear activities may be more than just about a right to civil energy (easily able to be accommodated) or safeguarding the regime from outside military intervention (again, something that can be accommodated). Hence, certain IAEA requests to address persistent concerns have gone unaddressed. Given those dynamics, a significant degree of pressure will likely be required if Iran is to conclude that a diplomatic agreement along the lines of what I described about is acceptable.

    And for the record, I wish the death of the Iranian regime and I fear them and always have, and in no way do I want them to have nukes. Religious extremists of any religion are bad. But we cant treat countries differently just because we disagree with the way they run their own affairs.. or we should not at least... as it causes too many problems.
    Ultimately, failure to achieve a diplomatic resolution will open the door to alternative approaches. Nations whose critica or vital interests (i.e., U.S./Western access to oil, Israel's existence, etc.) are threatened will ultimately try to do what it takes to safeguard those interests through a wide variety of possible measures i.e., containment, deterrence, a nuclear weapons program, covert operations, military deployment, even military operations. While a military operation is not assured, it cannot entirely be ruled out either because a country believes that its existence is threatened, Iran makes military moves to try to break out of a containment regime, some miscalculation occurs, or some other scenario precipitates conflict.

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Nor has Iran. And no "wiping Israel off the map" is not the same as threatening them with nukes.
    huh?

    But as long as we allow it one place with no problems and not another place just because we disagree with their methods then we are freaking hypocrites.
    I'm not seeing the hypocrisy? Iran is an enemy, Brazil, last time I checked is not. Where is that hypocrisy again?


    Tim-
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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    That does not make sense



    Iran does not plan to conquer anything, in 300 years I don't think they've ever started a war. They just plan to defend themselves, and nukes are an appropriate way to do so. Just look at a map of the M/E, there are US bases everywhere around them, and both the US and the Israeli presidents talk about bombing them every week.

    It's not because they're religious or because they're a dictatorship that they're retards, everyone knows the purpose of a nuke isn't to attack. Both Stalin and Mao had nukes, both looked at least as crazy as Ahmadinejad, yet they never used them.
    When someone says that they want to kill me, I tend to take them at their word.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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