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Thread: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

  1. #111
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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I never could understand why, even as hate speech, some people could come up with the word "Islamofascist". Islam is a religion, and married to the state, that government would be known as a theocracy. Facism is control of the state by business. The 2 concepts are mutually exclusive.
    Islam is not only a religion it is also a very radical form of totalitarianism that seeks world domination as its main goal as Sharia institutionalizes systematic persecution and often violent oppression of females and non-Muslims and incorporates draconian punishments such as lashings, stonings, beheadings, and amputations, while forbidding the freedom of conscience, the freedom of speech, and the freedom of religion, at the same time it also mandates death to apostates. In addition, Sharia commands all Muslims to wage offensive jihad for the spread of Islam via the imposition of Sharia, and this mandate to wage jihad for the spread of Islam, by the way, is the sixth pillar of Islam. Hence, in reality Islam is a totalitarian theo-political ideology that seeks to subjugate the world via the imposition of Sharia, or a theo-Islamofascist enterprise if you will.

    Donít believe me? Take a look inside the Islamic world and see what you see. Do you see freedom and liberty like you see inside the Western world? No, you see only totalitarianism everywhere you look, because of Sharia.

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamaYoMoma View Post
    Because of political correctness we don’t have the will to stop Iran now when it is easy to stop them, what makes you believe we will have the will to respond to a nuclear attack against Israel or another Middle East state by annihilating an entire nation? Not to mention that anyone who believes that mutual assured destruction will somehow work to deter the ruling Mullahs of Iran who love death more than they love life isn’t paying attention and is more than a little naive. Indeed, it is just those same kinds of people that have been pulling out their hair for decades trying to force Israel to make peace with the so-called Palestinians that are advocating such nonsense, not only will that never happen, but hell will freeze before that ever happens.
    There is no certainty as to whether MAD would work. It's one of a number of options that will need to be examined as a contingency approach. The risks, costs, and benefits of all the alternatives will need to be weighted.

    Indeed, if Israel fails to attack Iran by this weekend and I lived in Israel, I would be looking to get the hell out ASAP. Anyone who stays living in Israel after this weekend has a death wish, as for as I’m concerned. Gee…once a nuclear-armed Iran starts saber rattling I wonder what kind of impact that will have on Israel’s tourist industry. I also wonder what kind of impact that will have on world oil prices.
    Iran is widely estimated to be 1-3 years away from developing a nuclear weapons capability. If one adopts the shortest timeframe, then the crucial decision as to what to do would need to be taken at the end of this year or early next year. There is no intelligence report anywhere that suggests that Iran is 2-3 days away from gaining a nuclear weapons capability.

    Not to mention that even if Iran was annihilated in response to a nuclear attack against Israel, the ummah still wins because Israel gets wiped off the map but the ummah survives.
    That's a risk Israel will be assessing very carefully. Israel may well conclude that a military operation to try to thwart Iran's gaining nuclear weapons could be necessary. If Israel makes that choice, I suspect it will be late this year/early next year given the aforementioned timeframe I mentioned earlier. Israel has the most at stake and it will act to safeguard its vital interests.

    You and Obama need to learn that diplomacy with Islamofascist terrorist thugs doesn’t work, especially when neither one of you understands Islam. Even if Obama could secure some sort of last minute Hudna to stop the Iranian Mullahs, they would just go underground with their nuclear weapons program like the S. Koreans did. There is only one thing that will stop the Iranians from getting nuclear weapons and that is the eradication of the Iranian regime. Anything else is a pipe dream.
    A desirable solution is not necessary an attainable one. If you read all my posts on the matter, you would see that I have grave doubts that the current diplomatic efforts will succeed. You would see that I argue truly crippling sanctions that deny the Iranian regime the ability to export oil or have access to refined petroleum products holds a prospect if increasing the prospects of diplomatic success. Even then, a satisfactory outcome is not assured.

    Hence, it would be prudent to use the next 6-9 months to engage in meticulous planning for alternative approaches, gathering intelligence to identify all of Iran's uranium enrichment facilities, etc. Any military operation would need to be planned very carefully. A rushed endeavor with the kind of strategic planning flaws that led to real problems in Iraq and Afghanistan would almost certainly lead to a disastrous outcome (failure to achieve the intended goals and failure to substantially mitigate the adverse impact of retaliation by Iran and its proxies against U.S. forces, assets, and allies).

  3. #113
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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    There is no certainty as to whether MAD would work. It's one of a number of options that will need to be examined as a contingency approach. The risks, costs, and benefits of all the alternatives will need to be weighted.
    I have already personally weighed it a long time ago and have concluded that only a naÔve fool could be gullible enough to believe that it would work, but Iím convinced thatís Obamaís fallback position, since he also proposed diplomacy again after European diplomatic talks did nothing but buy Iran more valuable time.

    Iran is widely estimated to be 1-3 years away from developing a nuclear weapons capability. If one adopts the shortest timeframe, then the crucial decision as to what to do would need to be taken at the end of this year or early next year. There is no intelligence report anywhere that suggests that Iran is 2-3 days away from gaining a nuclear weapons capability.
    Per former Ambassador Bolton, once Bushehr becomes operational, it will generate enough plutonium on an annual basis to build many nuclear bombs, thus giving Iran a second route to nuclear weapons. Plus if Israel hits Bushehr after it becomes operational, it could lead to nuclear fallout throughout the region.

    That's a risk Israel will be assessing very carefully.
    If Israel hasnít already assessed that risk already years ago, then it is already too late.

    A desirable solution is not necessary an attainable one. If you read all my posts on the matter, you would see that I have grave doubts that the current diplomatic efforts will succeed. You would see that I argue truly crippling sanctions that deny the Iranian regime the ability to export oil or have access to refined petroleum products holds a prospect if increasing the prospects of diplomatic success. Even then, a satisfactory outcome is not assured.
    Not only is diplomacy with Islamofascist terrorist thugs a guaranteed failure, but sanctions are a guaranteed failure as well. Nevertheless, if you want to pretend like you are doing everything in your power you possibly can to protect the country and the America people, then even though it doesnít have a prayer in hell of working, it will work to deceive enough people into believing you did everything you possibly could to stop Iran except the only thing that would work, of course.

    Hence, it would be prudent to use the next 6-9 months to engage in meticulous planning for alternative approaches, gathering intelligence to identify all of Iran's uranium enrichment facilities, etc. Any military operation would need to be planned very carefully. A rushed endeavor with the kind of strategic planning flaws that led to real problems in Iraq and Afghanistan would almost certainly lead to a disastrous outcome (failure to achieve the intended goals and failure to substantially mitigate the adverse impact of retaliation by Iran and its proxies against U.S. forces, assets, and allies).
    If we havenít planned for any and all contingencies yet as Defense Secretary Gates suggested, then lord help us. With respect to the fiascos in Afghanistan and Iraq, they were inevitable as it stems from an institutional failure to acknowledge who the real enemy is. To understand your enemy, you must first be able to identify your enemy. If I were the czar, I would fire the entire State Department and start from scratch. The State Department is the biggest liability in the federal government.

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamaYoMoma View Post
    ...talks did nothing but buy Iran more valuable time.
    One can't make that assessment unless talks have failed and then Iran attains a nuclear weapons capability. Talks have floundered, but Iran does not have such a capability. There is still reasonable time to forego such an outcome.

    Per former Ambassador Bolton, once Bushehr becomes operational, it will generate enough plutonium on an annual basis to build many nuclear bombs, thus giving Iran a second route to nuclear weapons. Plus if Israel hits Bushehr after it becomes operational, it could lead to nuclear fallout throughout the region.
    Annual basis, not within two or three days. Russia's plan comes with precautions. All nuclear fuel rods would be returned to Russia (the model that will likely be adapted under an international agreement, should such an agreement be reached; as such the plant's operation could provide a good laboratory for testing the design of the international approach). Russia and the IAEA would be in a position to determine whether Iran had tampered with the rods in a bid to extract plutonium and could cut off future fuel deliveries. Western experts were satisfied with the safeguards.

    The biggest risk associated with Iran's nuclear activities comes from its uranium enrichment facilities (declared and secret), not the Bushehr plant. Greater scrutiny will need to be focused there.

    If Israel hasn’t already assessed that risk already years ago, then it is already too late.
    Israel is continually making and updating plans. It is also cognizant of risks. It will not act in a hasty fashion tied to artificial timelines that have little relevance to Iran's capabilities.

    Not only is diplomacy with Islamofascist terrorist thugs a guaranteed failure, but sanctions are a guaranteed failure as well.
    Given that U.S. forces are currently withdrawing from Iraq (something that wasn't happening a few years ago) and are tied down in Afghanistan coupled with Iran's still being 1-3 years from attaining a nuclear weapons capability, the U.S. is understandably not eager to make military action a first resort. There's time to pursue alternatives.

    If I were the czar, I would fire the entire State Department and start from scratch. The State Department is the biggest liability in the federal government.
    The State Department didn't make the war plans for Iraq or Afghanistan. The State Department did contribute its views with respect to political frameworks. But it wasn't the only player making such contributions.

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    If a bomb is dropped over Tel-Aviv, over New York or over Katmandu, the result will be the same: Iran will be annihilated. That's why they'll never do that,
    WowÖwe donít have the will to stop the Iranians today when it is easy to do so now. What makes you believe we are going to have the will to annihilate the whole nation of Iran after it becomes nuclear armed and far more dangerous, and what about all the nuclear fallout that will not just be contained in Iran? And what about Iran's allies Russia and China, they are just going to sit by and let their ally be annihilated?

    In any event, if Iran openís Pandoraís box, Pakistan will quickly become a nuclear supermarket and nuclear weapons will become its biggest export as Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, and some of the Gulf States will all rush to become nuclear armed to protect themselves from the Shiía menace. I canít say I blame them.

    Thus, if Iran stays true to its modus operandi and maintains plausible deniability via giving nukes to a terrorist organization to destroy Israel, how are you going to know which country it came from. All of them are the enemies of Israel. Are you going to nuke the entire Middle East?

    Nevertheless, Iran wonít even have to use a nuclear bomb to destroy Israel. All it will have to do is saber rattle, and there will be a mass exodus of Jews from Israel. Not to mention that every time it rattles it sabers, world oil prices will shoot through the roof.

    Iíd much rather deal with possible short term sky high oil prices instead of with a nuclear armed Iran that will be able to raise the tension in the Middle East and oil prices anytime it wants.

    Of course, eradicating the ruling Mullahs and destroying Iranís nuclear weapons program isnít a very pleasant proposition. However, a nuclear-armed Iran is a far worse proposition.

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Of course, eradicating the ruling Mullahs and destroying Iran’s nuclear weapons program isn’t a very pleasant proposition. However, a nuclear-armed Iran is a far worse proposition.
    No it isn't. What a completely ****ing insane thing to say...
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    If Israel does choose to bomb Iran I sure hope they have really good intelligence, as it's a given Iran's installations will probably not be where they are thought to be. Considering how much time Iran has had there will probably be a fair share of deception and very fortified. Furthermore the alledged targets are sure to be in population centers to create a lot of collateral damage reinforcing Israel's bad image among Islam.

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    It's right there:

    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamaYoMoma View Post
    What makes you believe we are going to have the will to annihilate the whole nation of Iran after it becomes nuclear armed and far more dangerous, and what about all the nuclear fallout that will not just be contained in Iran? And what about Iran's allies Russia and China, they are just going to sit by and let their ally be annihilated?
    1) I hope we never have the will to annihilate the entire nation. It's not like they all have the same opinion of "Death to America/Israel". There are a lot of moderates in Iran. I remember a skit the Daily Show did where they went to Iran and asked their opinions on America and for the most part they got the answer "Oh, you're a cool nation, we have no issue with you". The ruling class, who are old and steeped in tradition, are the ones who are against the West. The younger Iranians are fine with Americans and Israel. It would be a shame if they were to be killed because of this.

    2) Russia and China would probably side with us rather than Iran. When you look at who you would rather have as an allie, a comparison between America and Iran kind of makes you come to the conclusion that America makes a better allie then an enemy, and Iran may have the benefit of a good oil supply, but we have the benifit of an awesome military.
    Reality tends to have a liberal bias.

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    Re: Israel has '8 days' to hit Iran nuclear site: Bolton

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    There is no certainty as to whether MAD would work.
    THere is no mutual assured destruction at all because of the way the Iranians view the situation. hHey do not view it as Iran vs Israel, but rather, as the Muslim Ummah against the Jews. Rafsanjani even spelled it out for the world nearly a decade ago that they seek nuclear capability in order to destroy Israel, and even if Israel retaliates against Iran, the Ummah will still flourish.

    I can still recall an argument I had with one of my political science professors 35 years ago in regards to Kissinger. I could never seem to get him to understand my point of view that the basic flaw in Kissinger's doctrine was that it presupposed a level of rationality that not all people possess -- especially in regards to our western views towards what we perceive to be rational self-interest. MAD only works when both parties share the same cultural values and when they are both acting with rational self-interest. As Rafsanjani has shown, it breaks down when the cultures involved are so different as to preclude the sorts of tacit understandings upon which Kissinger's work is built.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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