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Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

So, if a gay man and a lesbian marrying doesn't render marriage inconsequential and dirty the meaning, then how does two women marrying do so?

That's not what I said. So if friends, you know, buds in their early 20's, wanted to get married to share in all those goodies the Government throws at them, you'd find that ok? What justifies that? Why would we do it? What would be the reason for doing this? The answer is illuminating.


Tim-
 
I'm not offended by a gay marriage, I'm concerned how gay marriage will affect society in the long term. Do you have an answer as to why the state, or our state would have any vested interest in marriage outside of procreation? Why would the state care at all. Anyone?


Tim-
I wonder why they let people marry who can't and won't bear children since they have no "vested interest" in such a marriage.
 
That's not what I said. So if friends, you know, buds in their early 20's, wanted to get married to share in all those goodies the Government throws at them, you'd find that ok? What justifies that? Why would we do it? What would be the reason for doing this? The answer is illuminating.


Tim-
I don't give a flying **** who enters into contracts with one another. None of my damn business. But why would the govt allow a lesbian and a gay man to marry? What's the reason for doing this? What justifies it? Why would we do it?

The real question is: Why not? Why should we continue to allow discrimination of the sexes? It serves no purpose.
 
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For the last time, marriage is not essential to procreation. And allowing SSM won't change the number of straight people that can procreate via intercourse.

No, but a healthy viable marriage is essential to a healthy society. I think history shows us this. Do you not agree that children do better when both the mother and father are present? Or is it your liberal contention that parents are meaningless to child rearing?


Do you have children?



Tim-
 
That's not what I said. So if friends, you know, buds in their early 20's, wanted to get married to share in all those goodies the Government throws at them, you'd find that ok? What justifies that? Why would we do it? What would be the reason for doing this? The answer is illuminating.


Tim-

My best friend is a guy, and we could do this exact same thing. It's no argument against SSM.
 
I don't give a flying **** who enters into contracts with one another. None of my damn business.

So the real question is: Why not? Why should we continue to allow discrimination of the sexes?

So, you're ok with paying for those frat boys, and girls forming a union of marriage just so they can reap the rewards of your hard earned tax dollars, for nothing, other than entering into the contract? Well, I have a problem with that myself. I wonder if you would think that those "buds" getting married is equal to the homosexual marriage? :)



Tim-
 
No, but a healthy viable marriage is essential to a healthy society. I think history shows us this.
Incorrect. Healthy *relationships* are essential, but not marriage contracts.

Do you not agree that children do better when both the mother and father are present?
Indeed. We should remove the children from all single parents.
 
No, but a healthy viable marriage is essential to a healthy society. I think history shows us this. Do you not agree that children do better when both the mother and father are present? Or is it your liberal contention that parents are meaningless to child rearing?


Do you have children?



Tim-

2 parents is what is best. Does not matter what gender.
 
No, but a healthy viable marriage is essential to a healthy society. I think history shows us this. Do you not agree that children do better when both the mother and father are present? Or is it your liberal contention that parents are meaningless to child rearing?


Do you have children?



Tim-

Studies show that children do best in 2 parent households. You have evidence that those 2 parents must be male and female? Feel free to present it.
 
My best friend is a guy, and we could do this exact same thing. It's no argument against SSM.

I never said it was, well not directly. It's more of an illustration. What it is, is an exposing of the slippery slope that Walkers ruling entails. It opens up a wide variety of marriage possibilities based on gender alone. Why not just restrict it to one man, and one woman?




Tim-
 
So, you're ok with paying for those frat boys, and girls forming a union of marriage just so they can reap the rewards of your hard earned tax dollars, for nothing, other than entering into the contract? Well, I have a problem with that myself. I wonder if you would think that those "buds" getting married is equal to the homosexual marriage? :)
Tim-

It's not for me, or anyone else, to determine the value of someone's relationship or contractual obligations. Again, I don't give a **** who signs contracts with each other. If people are so insecure that they have to "weigh" their marriage against that of someone elses, then that's their problem. Not mine.

What I DO give a **** about is our govt engaging in blatant sexual discrimination. Everything else is irrelevant.

EDIT: And as I said previously, I think the govt should be out of the marriage bull**** altogether. Personally, I don't think that people who sign a certain contract should get more privileges than those of us who do not. But as long as the govt is involved, they cannot be allowed to continue the sexual discrimination.
 
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I never said it was, well not directly. It's more of an illustration. What it is, is an exposing of the slippery slope that Walkers ruling entails. It opens up a wide variety of marriage possibilities based on gender alone. Why not just restrict it to one man, and one woman?




Tim-

Slippery Slope fallacy.
 
Studies show that children do best in 2 parent households. You have evidence that those 2 parents must be male and female? Feel free to present it.

I could, but it would be a waste of time. The best you could do to argue against me is say that there isn't enough data to show that gays are as good as heterosexual parents. But experience shows that both the mother, and the father impart special characteristics in rearing children. These characteristics help the child identify with themselves. You don't need a study for this, you only need to look past your particular ideological agenda.

I must bid you all farewell for now. I've got to go kill some bad guys in Battlefield Bad Company II. My LAN friends are yelling at me.. :)


tim-
 
I could, but it would be a waste of time. The best you could do to argue against me is say that there isn't enough data to show that gays are as good as heterosexual parents. But experience shows that both the mother, and the father impart special characteristics in rearing children. These characteristics help the child identify with themselves. You don't need a study for this, you only need to look past your particular ideological agenda.

I must bid you all farewell for now. I've got to go kill some bad guys in Battlefield Bad Company II. My LAN friends are yelling at me.. :)


tim-

So you have nothing, again. I on the other hand, have documetation: http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20051012/study-same-sex-parents-raise-well-adjusted-kids

Between 1 million and 6 million children in the U.S. are being reared by committed lesbian or gay couples, she says. Children being raised by same-sex parents were either born to a heterosexual couple, adopted, or conceived through artificial insemination.

"The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."

This is called backing up our claims. I can add more since more has been done since this article. Your claim is false.
 
No, but a healthy viable marriage is essential to a healthy society

And there are SO many of those, right? I mean, I can't spit without hitting a healthy marriage.
 
Incorrect. Healthy *relationships* are essential, but not marriage contracts.


Indeed. We should remove the children from all single parents.

Meh. I guess. Of course not when I was raising my daughter, but now is good.
 
So, you're ok with paying for those frat boys, and girls forming a union of marriage just so they can reap the rewards of your hard earned tax dollars, for nothing, other than entering into the contract?
Yes, because that's MY right too. Why should someone NOT do what is finantially in their best interest provided it is within the bounds of the law?

I have a problem with that myself.

Do you also have problems with people contributing to their IRA and 401(k)s because it allows them to "evade taxes?" After all, they can shelter $5,000 from taxes a year "for nothing, other than entering into a contract!" (And paying $15).

So what's the difference between the taxes saved by an IRA and taxes saved by getting married?
 
I think ultimately what has to happen here is the government needs to step in and make it federally legal for anyone to marry who they want all over. This is one of these things where public opinion will catch up with the ruling as time goes on.
 

That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen.. Wow?

Redress -
So you have nothing, again. I on the other hand, have documetation: http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/n...-adjusted-kids

You don't have jack.. :) The article is from 2005, and it exactly the kind of article one would expect from someone who supports gay marriage. Most, if not all studies done on gay parenting were done by researchers that were pro-gay. They also suffer from at least, one, and many time more methodological flaws. The conclusions developed in most of the studies are lacking the threshold burden to form a statistical correlation. In other words, they are manufactured conclusions. Judith Stacey's, analysis of all of the major studies is perhaps the most often quoted study to date. In it, and although she has gone on record refuting the results of her own study, she states that, in fact children reared by homosexual couples are much more likely to identify as gay when they reach adulthood. She also concludes that, empirically, children in stable healthy heterosexual homes, are much more psychologically healthy than those of homosexual homes, where the stability of the homosexual home is equivalent to that of the heterosexual home. See especially S. 159-183. See especially 168-171

Just like children of broken homes, divorce, and single parent homes are less likely to experience the emotion well-being found in children of healthy, and stable heterosexual marriages.

Now, we know there are exceptions to any of these rules, we KNOW this, but using studies that examine statistical data, we must form conclusions based on the broad sample We can't throw out statistics, because they don't say what we want them to say as a whole, just like we can't take a single, or exceptional variable, and apply it to the broad sample. The purpose of broad samples is to more narrowly define the conclusion. We can never take a single individual experience, or even a small number of similar experiences, and apply it to a sample that has a specific intent of drawing a broad conclusion. That's why small samples, even if done with precision, and attuned with the highest regard for the scientific method, are incomplete at forming broad, narrow conclusions. In other words, they don't tell us anything about society, all they tend to is tell us about the sample itself.

I KNOW, that the liberal, and to some degree more liberal social conservatives here on this forum argue that marriage shouldn't be the government's business. I get that, I also get that many here feel that, heterosexual marriage isn't exactly great anymore, and that heterosexual marriage proponents can't exactly make a claim that their form of marriage is stable, when we see divorce rates as high as 50%. I get that as well. However, I have long maintained that the devaluing of the traditional marriage has been the result of many attacks from less conservative principles, legislation, liberally influenced educational indoctrination, media, inter alia, and as a result, over the last 40 years, especially over the last 25 or so years, we have seen a massive devaluing of marriage. I contend that if marriage is not "brought-back", and promoted, and recognized as it has been historically, and traditionally, our society will not survive another 100 years. I truly believe this, and all available data points to this eventuality.

This, of course, is merely my opinion. I have no magic googled link that backs up my opinion, as the issue is extremely complex, and covers a wide range of equally complex variables, and even if I did provide 50 links to add weight to this or that variable, most here would dismiss it. In fact people are dismissing the complexity of this issue as it stands now. The reason people, even members here raise the issue, "Well how the **** does it affect you, or your marriage" is because there is no one sentence, or even a Ph.D thesis that could answer it, in a way that is quantifiable. The affects are over many years, and affect society, not the individual marriage, per say. Now, I know I'm a small voice on this forum, in favor of keeping traditional marriage, traditional, and I also advocate for legislation to strengthen it, and provide more recognition to heterosexual marriage, but that's another topic.

I found this article by a Princeton review, that articulates my position on marriage with a great deal more authority, and in fact, is exactly my feeling on the matter. http://www.winst.org/family_marria... Marriage and the Public Good: Ten Principles

It's a great read for anyone that shares my viewpoint in wanting to restore the strength of the traditional marriage within society. I highly recommend it.

Tim-
 
Did you read your source material Hicup? Let me quote the first one:

Most of the differences in the findings discussed above cannot be considered deficits from any legitimate public policy perspective. They either favor the children with lesbigay parents, are secondary effects of social prejudice, or represent "just a difference" of the sort democratic societies should respect and protect.

Your second link gives a 404 error.
 
Did you read your source material Hicup? Let me quote the first one:



Your second link gives a 404 error.

Hmm, you're right. Try this: http://www.winst.org/family_marriage_and_democracy/WI_Marriage.pdf

Of course I read it, I know it inside and out. Did you read it all, or just the parts you want to hear. I already said that Stacey has gone on record saying that people are misinterpreting her conclusions, but the data is what it is. You can argue all day long what the data says, and people have. Her study of many studies is the most widely quoted, and both sides find areas to exploit. I quoted it, and linked to it, because it offers a very in-depth look at many studies on the issue. In short, the study is an analysis of all the major studies done to date, and she offers a few opinions on the subject. It's a fair assessment in that, she has every right to her conclusions, and in some ways the statistics convey correlative value to her conclusions, but in other ways they do not. They say otherwise. Statistics are funny things, and broad samples can be manipulated in many ways. Not to mention that, her opinions in favor of gay parenting are not necessarily conclusive, and are also not necessarily supported by the data. That's the point. I posted it so people who care about the issue specific to gay parenting, can look at the data, and form their own conclusions. It's all right there. As I said, the data is complex, and some variables are assumed, and some variables cannot be quantified, so in a lot of ways, the study of the major studies, is in itself incomplete, and perhaps suffering from the same flaws that other studies suffer from. That is, the variables that are not quantifiable, and instead, assumptions are used to round out the category. Assumptions can be used to form conclusions, but how close they are to the truth all depends on how much weight you assign the variable.

I have no problem arguing the data in Stacey's paper. I understand statistics, and concepts such as penetration, and incidence, prevalence, and how they all meet in the middle to form correlative conclusions. I get it.. Do you? :)


Tim-
 
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Actually yes, I have read the full article. That is why I know that Dr. Stacey concluded that children raised by gays do just as well as children raised by straits. Further, the article you linked is from 2001, whereas my link was from 2005. Dr. Stacey helped correct some methodology issues in this 2001 article, and has improved the studies done since...remember, my source was from 2005. Further, there are even more recent studies. Here, from 2010: Children of lesbian parents do better than their peers - life - 08 June 2010 - New Scientist

The children of lesbian parents outscore their peers on academic and social tests, according to results from the longest-running study of same-sex families.

Now, do you want to try and document that children of gay parents do not do as well as those of strait parents? Or are we supposed to take your word for it?
 
@Hicup and it is dumb why? Because in a very amusing way it shows why you are intolerant?
 
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