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Thread: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

  1. #261
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    You go to court to nullify your marriage not your marriage license.
    Both, actually. You're getting out of a contract.

    I mean, if you don't want to drive anymore, do you have to go to court to "nullify your drivers license"? Of course not.

    But you do have to take legal action to get out of a legal contract - like a marriage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    The contract is made, either verbally, or in writing, or a combination of the two, and it is between the two people getting married, and their God. The states, all but one, ignore the marriage contract with no fault divorce. No one is deflecting, it's just that we've been over it. You and Rivrrat are just not getting it.


    Tim-
    Okay look, if it was just a "verbal contract" between the two individuals, then same sex marriage would be recognized by the states and no marriage license would be required, nor signatures, etc. We wouldn't have to vote and go to courts to make the contract between same sex couples legal. Obviously, the contract is not a verbal one between "two people and their [supposed] god" (if they have one). At least, not legally recognized marriage. No one is arguing that people can go off and get married to whomever or whatever they wish using whatever ceremony they deem fit. But in order for it to be legally recognized, there must be a govt recognized, legal contract between the individuals in question. Otherwise, it's not a govt recognized marriage offering the privileges and obligations to the people who agreed to enter into said contract.

    I completely support removing the government from the process and keeping marriage a purely social and private institution. Absolutely, 100% agree. However, currently, it is a legal contract that discriminates based on gender. And as long as it is a legal contract, then it cannot be allowed to discriminate based on gender.

  2. #262
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Both, actually. You're getting out of a contract.

    I mean, if you don't want to drive anymore, do you have to go to court to "nullify your drivers license"? Of course not.

    But you do have to take legal action to get out of a legal contract - like a marriage.




    Okay look, if it was just a "verbal contract" between the two individuals, then same sex marriage would be recognized by the states and no marriage license would be required, nor signatures, etc. We wouldn't have to vote and go to courts to make the contract between same sex couples legal. Obviously, the contract is not a verbal one between "two people and their [supposed] god" (if they have one). At least, not legally recognized marriage. No one is arguing that people can go off and get married to whomever or whatever they wish using whatever ceremony they deem fit. But in order for it to be legally recognized, there must be a govt recognized, legal contract between the individuals in question. Otherwise, it's not a govt recognized marriage offering the privileges and obligations to the people who agreed to enter into said contract.

    I completely support removing the government from the process and keeping marriage a purely social and private institution. Absolutely, 100% agree. However, currently, it is a legal contract that discriminates based on gender. And as long as it is a legal contract, then it cannot be allowed to discriminate based on gender.
    One can drive a car without a license as well, but it's not legal. Why? Because one has not met the prerequisit standard for issuing the license to drive. That's all the marriage license does. It validates the marriage in the eyes of the state. The state says, "yep, ok, cool, one man, one woman, both legal age, both agree, no coersion, not married anywhere else, great continue".. That's all it does. It is just a validation that you are allowed to be married. It is NOT a contract with the state. When you divorce, the marriage license is revoked, as public record, and in the case of an annulment, it is stricken as if it never happened, and there is no public record that it ever took place.

    Now, you have a point about the license requirements. Yes, according to the gays it is discriminatory, and according to Judge Walker, it discriminates based on gender. That's what we're arguing here.

    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

  3. #263
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    One can drive a car without a license as well, but it's not legal. Why? Because one has not met the prerequisit standard for issuing the license to drive. That's all the marriage license does. It validates the marriage in the eyes of the state. The state says, "yep, ok, cool, one man, one woman, both legal age, both agree, no coersion, not married anywhere else, great continue".. That's all it does. It is just a validation that you are allowed to be married. It is NOT a contract with the state. When you divorce, the marriage license is revoked, as public record, and in the case of an annulment, it is stricken as if it never happened, and there is no public record that it ever took place.
    And when you dont' want to drive any longer, you don't have to go to court to "get out of your driver's license" like you have to in order to get out of a marriage. Why? Because marriage is a ****ing contract between the two people IN the marriage. If it were "just a license" then you wouldn't have to go to court to get out of it. It is a contract. You agree to certain obligations, and gain certain privileges. The only way out of it is to take legal action to get out of the CONTRACT, just like ANY contract and unlike any mere license.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    And when you dont' want to drive any longer, you don't have to go to court to "get out of your driver's license" like you have to in order to get out of a marriage. Why? Because marriage is a ****ing contract between the two people IN the marriage. If it were "just a license" then you wouldn't have to go to court to get out of it. It is a contract. You agree to certain obligations, and gain certain privileges. The only way out of it is to take legal action to get out of the CONTRACT, just like ANY contract and unlike any mere license.
    I provided three links to prove you wrong. One, an actual marriage license for the state of CA, two, the definition of a marriage license, and three, the definition of a contract. All of them PROVE you are wrong. I don't know what else to say on the matter.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I provided three links to prove you wrong. One, an actual marriage license for the state of CA, two, the definition of a marriage license, and three, the definition of a contract. All of them PROVE you are wrong. I don't know what else to say on the matter.


    Tim-
    You're wrong. Why don't you address the points Rivvrat made.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I provided three links to prove you wrong. One, an actual marriage license for the state of CA, two, the definition of a marriage license, and three, the definition of a contract. All of them PROVE you are wrong. I don't know what else to say on the matter.


    Tim-
    You're wrong. Why don't you address the points Rivvrat made.

  7. #267
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I provided three links to prove you wrong. One, an actual marriage license for the state of CA, two, the definition of a marriage license, and three, the definition of a contract. All of them PROVE you are wrong. I don't know what else to say on the matter.


    Tim-
    What Is The Legal Definition Of Marriage?

    What Is The Legal Definition Of Marriage?
    Marriage is defined as a civil contract between two people who meet the legal requirements for getting married established by the state, which vary from state to state.
    Legal Definition of Marriage
    A contract made in due form of law, by which a free man and a free woman reciprocally engage to live with each other during their joint lives, in the union which ought io exist between husband and wife.

    To make a valid marriage, the parties must be willing to contract, able to contract, and have actually contracted.
    Definition of Marriage - Why People Get Married, Rules And Regulations, Types Of Marriage, Conclusion - United, Institution, and Legal
    In almost all societies, it entails a legal contract (written or verbal), and this contract varies in the degree to which it can be broken.
    Marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Marriage is a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship
    Legal Definition of Marriage
    The marriage contract has the unusual distinction of a pre-requisite license from the state; hence "... it is regulated ...".

    Marriage is considered a civil contract, but of a peculiar character and subject to peculiar principles.... It, certainly, does differ from ordinary common law contracts, by reason of its subject-matter and of the supervision which the state exercises over the marriage relation, which the contract institutes....

    "Marriage is more than a personal relation between a man and woman. It is a status founded on contract and established by law.
    marriage legal definition of marriage. marriage synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.
    The legal status, condition, or relationship that results from a contract by which one man and one woman, who have the capacity to enter into such an agreement, mutually promise to live together in the relationship of Husband and Wife in law for life, or until the legal termination of the relationship.


    Definition of contract:


    contract - definition of contract by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
    con·tract
    n.
    1.
    a. An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written and enforceable by law.
    b. The writing or document containing such an agreement.
    2. The branch of law dealing with formal agreements between parties.
    3. Marriage as a formal agreement; betrothal.

    Contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    In law, a contract is a legally binding agreement between two or more parties which, if it contains the elements of a valid legal agreement, is enforceable by law[1] or by binding arbitration. A legally enforceable contract is an exchange of promises with specific legal remedies for breach. These can include compensatory remedy, whereby the defaulting party is required to pay monies that would otherwise have been exchanged were the contract honoured, or an Equitable remedy such as Specific Performance, in which the person who entered into the contract is required to carry out the specific action they have reneged upon.
    contract legal definition of contract. contract synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.
    contract 1) n. an agreement with specific terms between two or more persons or entities in which there is a promise to do something in return for a valuable benefit known as consideration


    Wow, the definition of "contract" sounds strangely like what a marriage is.

  8. #268
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Yes, marriage is a contract, and a marriage license is the ability to enter into that contract withiin the confines of the law, provided the two parties meet the prerequists.

    I already said as much, and you did all that googling to prove yourself wrong again.

    BDBop - I have addresses her, and she is still wrong. Wrong, WRONG, wrong.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Yes, marriage is a contract, and a marriage license is the ability to enter into that contract withiin the confines of the law, provided the two parties meet the prerequists.

    I already said as much, and you did all that googling to prove yourself wrong again.

    BDBop - I have addresses her, and she is still wrong. Wrong, WRONG, wrong.


    Tim-
    Obtainment of the license gives one the ability to enter into the contract. Signing the license contractually binds the two. The license IS the contract. Without the signed license, you are not married. You are not in the contract. The signed license IS the legally binding contract, hence the "notarization" that's required in order to submit it legally. Nothing BUT the signed license contractually binds you as married.

  10. #270
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Obtainment of the license gives one the ability to enter into the contract. Signing the license contractually binds the two. The license IS the contract. Without the signed license, you are not married. You are not in the contract. The signed license IS the legally binding contract, hence the "notarization" that's required in order to submit it legally. Nothing BUT the signed license contractually binds you as married.
    The is the entire Domestic relations law for the State of NY: Laws of New York

    This is the Family Court Act for the state of NY: Laws of New York

    This is the Entire code of Laws for the State of NY: Laws of New York

    Nowhere, anywhere in any of the laws of NY State does it say the words that the marriage license is a contract. Now, Contract LAW absolutley demands that any written contract be indicated as same. This means that if it is a contract it MUST contain the words "This is a contract". You'll also find that this applies to Federal law as well. The reason I posted the Laws of NY as opposed to CA is that I know the DOM, and FCT inside and out. Being a diivorced father of two I have represented myself in court many times, and won all but one decision. I've also represented myself in a matter brought against me by the Attorney General of Canada, and I won that decision as well. I know a little about the law, and the clarity one must bring to the court room. Courts don't like people representing themselves, and are MUCH harder on them. Trust me I know this first hand. You need to know your **** if you want to represent yourself, and not just know the law, you need to understand the rules of the court. It is not following the rules that piss off the judges.

    Now, show me where anywhere that the Marriage license is a contract. Marriage is the contract, the license is the premission to enter into the contract. Period!

    Now, I'm done with you..

    Tim-
    Last edited by Hicup; 08-18-10 at 03:24 PM.
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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