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Thread: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

  1. #231
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    but I have and still have yet to see a vaild reason to keep it illegal.
    Ok then..


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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    You're not seriously suggesting that the marriage license isn't a contract, are you? Seriously?

    In law, a contract is a legally binding agreement between two or more parties which, if it contains the elements of a valid legal agreement, is enforceable by law[1] or by binding arbitration. A legally enforceable contract is an exchange of promises with specific legal remedies for breach. These can include compensatory remedy, whereby the defaulting party is required to pay monies that would otherwise have been exchanged were the contract honoured, or an Equitable remedy such as Specific Performance, in which the person who entered into the contract is required to carry out the specific action they have reneged upon.

    Agreement is said to be reached when an offer capable of immediate acceptance is met with a "mirror image" acceptance (i.e., an unqualified acceptance).[2] The parties must have the necessary capacity to contract and the contract must not be either trifling, indeterminate, impossible, or illegal. Contract law is based on the principle expressed in the Latin phrase pacta sunt servanda (usually translated "agreements are to be kept", but more literally "pacts must be kept").[3] Breach of contract is recognized by the law and remedies can be provided. Link

    Where are the promises in the marriage license? Riverrat, you only need to meet prerequisits in order for the license to be issued. That is NOT a contract. Are you SERIOUSLY arguing this with me?


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
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  3. #233
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    I believe we have Supreme Court precedent stating that marriage is more than a civil contract:

    "Marriage is something more than a mere contract, though founded upon the agreement of the parties. When once formed, a relation is created between the parties which they cannot change, and the rights and obligations of which depend not upon their agreement, but upon the law, statutory or common. It is an institution of society, regulated and controlled by public authority."
    Maynard v. Hill

    Marriage establishes rights and obligations as a matter of law, not contract.
    Last edited by Taylor; 08-17-10 at 03:35 PM.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    The thing in this whole situation that really burns me, is the phrase "the will of the voters". If a state got together and voted for a law that red headed short people would longer be allowed to reside in the state, and this law passed with 85% of the vote, should it be allowed to stand? Now, I am not comparing this to the vote against gay marriage, as I am not going to get into my positions on it in this post. I am only trying to make a point. If the vote of the people goes against the constitution, then that vote cannot be allowed to stand. This is WHY we have 3 branches of government, and why it is the job of the courts to interpret the laws, and, if necessary, determine their constitutionality. Like I said, I am not saying that law is unconstitutional, but it is the courts job to make that call, and NOT by a direct vote of the people. A vote of the people cannot change the constitution. So, please. Stop talking about what the voters want. America, contrary to popular belief, is NOT a direct democracy. The people can all want to remove all taxes completely, and make it a law that only people uglier than themselves be allowed to hang out with them so they can look more attractive, but they cant just have a vote and make this happen.

    Agree or disagree with gay marriage all you want, but stop whining about the will of the voter.
    If you can't bite, don't growl.

  5. #235
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Do you believe that the voters should have veto power over YOUR (current or future) marriage? It's no one's goddamn business except the two people who want to get married.
    Apparently, it's the government and the laws business.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Where are the promises in the marriage license? Riverrat, you only need to meet prerequisits in order for the license to be issued. That is NOT a contract. Are you SERIOUSLY arguing this with me?


    Tim-
    I can't even believe you're arguing that it's NOT. When you both sign that license (aka - CONTRACT) you're agreeing to abide by the marriage laws of the state in which you are married. Where the hell else do you think that agreement happens? Anything not covered by said state laws you'd have to get an additional document for, commonly referred to as a 'pre-nup'.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by opinion8tdwench View Post
    If a state got together and voted for a law that red headed short people would longer be allowed to reside in the state, and this law passed with 85% of the vote, should it be allowed to stand?
    /me wrings hands

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Same sex couples can marry. This is a question of whether or not the state should be forced to recognize those marriages. The state has identified a number of "prerequisites" to determine which marriages are "valid" for recognition. State interests underly those prerequisites. Procreation is one interest that has been identified in relevant case law.
    OK, but it was stated that procreation is not "the" interest, but "an" interest. So I want to know what other interests are violated with same sex marriage. And is the violation of one interest enough to justify government action against the individual. That question has still not yet been answered

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    What other interest might the state have in restricting marriages between related individuals?
    We have enough stupid people already. There's no need to marry into your own family. But it's also not really a problem since it's not the norm here to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Do you not agree that the state has a significant interest in promoting responsible procreation within long term, committed relationships?
    What business is it of theirs? You want to talk about "long term, committed relationships", but over half of all first marriages end in divorce. If the State had significant interest in promoting responsible procreation within long term, committed relationships don't you think they should have tougher restrictions on divorce? Maybe mandatory pre-marriage counseling too. But none of that exists. And same sex couples can also have a long term, committed relationship. And since there are so many orphans out there, they can even provide better homes than the State for the raising of these children.
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I can't even believe you're arguing that it's NOT. When you both sign that license (aka - CONTRACT) you're agreeing to abide by the marriage laws of the state in which you are married. Where the hell else do you think that agreement happens? Anything not covered by said state laws you'd have to get an additional document for, commonly referred to as a 'pre-nup'.
    So is my drivers license a contract. What are the promises, in law, specific to marriage that, I must fulfill, or not break? I must be a man, or a woman, not already married, of legal age, and uncoerced, inter alia in order to recieve my license. There, now I'm married. Now what performance standard, in law, am I bound to? What legal obligation do I have to my spouse, or the state, specific to marriage?

    The verb licence or grant licence means to give permission. The noun licence (license in American English) refers to that permission as well as to the document memorializing that permission.

    License may be granted by a party ("licensor") to another party ("licensee") as an element of an agreement between those parties. A shorthand definition of a license is "an authorization (by the licensor) to use the licensed material (by the licensee)."

    In particular a license may be issued by authorities, to allow an activity that would otherwise be forbidden. It may require paying a fee and/or proving a capability. The requirement may also serve to keep the authorities informed on a type of activity, and to give them the opportunity to set conditions and limitations
    Link


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    So is my drivers license a contract. What are the promises, in law, specific to marriage that, I must fulfill, or not break? I must be a man, or a woman, not already married, of legal age, and uncoerced, inter alia in order to recieve my license. There, now I'm married. Now what performance standard, in law, am I bound to? What legal obligation do I have to my spouse, or the state, specific to marriage?

    Link


    Tim-
    Depends on your state.

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