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Thread: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Government oversees the execution of contract and arbitrates when parties in contract are in dispute. Including having procedures by which a contract can be dissolved if both parties agree or if something illegal had taken place during the execution of the contract. No fault divorce was constructed in this light (both parties agree) due to the high frequency of divorce. Thus it is still a government issued and recognized contract and the individual has right to contract.
    They have the right to contract, but it isn't, or no longer is it, fundamental to the marriage with no fault divorce. There is no apportionment in no fault, no degrees to measure fulfillment of said contract by either party, thus, it is invalidated and the state ignores it. If it ignores the contract, you know, like wedding vows etc.. And provides no apportionment in divorce, then the contract is meaningless in the eyes of the state. If it's meaningless, it cannot be fundamental to the marriage, or fundamental at all.


    Tim-
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But I'm trying to gauge what that government interest is. Clearly there is procreation. But it's not "the" interest, right? It's "an" interest. Well that's the one and only difference between same sex couples and hetero couples that I can come up with. All other things are capable of being done by both sets. So it's either "the" interest; which is no problem seeing as with immigration we're at replacement so we don't need to worry about everyone reproducing. Or there are other "interests" which are being violated so that you can lead this claim against same sex marriage. I'm want to know what those interests are and if the violation of those interests excuses government force against the rights and liberties of the individual. I don't see why people are so afraid of answering questions.
    Look at it this way. Without procreation, what is the states interest in marriage that rises to the point that it is in need of fundamental protection? I asked this a few times now, and no one has an answer.


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    Last edited by Hicup; 08-17-10 at 01:38 PM. Reason: typo
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But I'm trying to gauge what that government interest is. Clearly there is procreation. But it's not "the" interest, right? It's "an" interest. Well that's the one and only difference between same sex couples and hetero couples that I can come up with. All other things are capable of being done by both sets. So it's either "the" interest; which is no problem seeing as with immigration we're at replacement so we don't need to worry about everyone reproducing. Or there are other "interests" which are being violated so that you can lead this claim against same sex marriage. I'm want to know what those interests are and if the violation of those interests excuses government force against the rights and liberties of the individual. I don't see why people are so afraid of answering questions.
    If you think there might be more than two interests, I encourage you to do some additional research. I've presented two which is all I need to support the argument I made.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    They have the right to contract, but it isn't, or no longer is it, fundamental to the marriage with no fault divorce. There is no apportionment in no fault, no degrees to measure fulfillment of said contract by either party, thus, it is invalidated and the state ignores it. If it ignores the contract, you know, like wedding vows etc.. And provides no apportionment in divorce, then the contract is meaningless in the eyes of the state. If it's meaningless, it cannot be fundamental to the marriage, or fundamental at all.


    Tim-
    Wedding vows are not part of the formal Marriage License. Thus are not part of the formal contract. You can make claim to oral contract, but it would be separate from the Marriage License. Thus the ceremony has little to nothing to do with marriage anymore. I suppose perhaps on this point we agree. Marriage is now signified by the Marriage License, a government issued and recognized contract.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    If you think there might be more than two interests, I encourage you to do some additional research. I've presented two which is all I need to support the argument I made.
    But only one of the interests is violated. So you're saying that by being unable to procreate, that is enough violation of state "interest" to excuse the use of government force against the rights of the individual?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Look at it this way. Without procreation, what is the states interest in marriage that rises to the point that it is in need of fundamental protection? I asked this a few times now, and no one has an answer.


    Tim-
    Taxes and data mining.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But only one of the interests is violated. So you're saying that by being unable to procreate, that is enough violation of state "interest" to excuse the use of government force against the rights of the individual?
    What government force is required to not recognize a same sex marriage?

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    What government force is required to not recognize a same sex marriage?
    You must use government force to forbid same sex couples from entering the contract of marriage. Force is the only tool that can suppress the exercise of rights, and government force the most used of all tools to do so. If there was no government force here, there would be no issue as same sex couples could then marry.

    So do you think you can now answer my question?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #219
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Wedding vows are not part of the formal Marriage License. Thus are not part of the formal contract. You can make claim to oral contract, but it would be separate from the Marriage License. Thus the ceremony has little to nothing to do with marriage anymore. I suppose perhaps on this point we agree. Marriage is now signified by the Marriage License, a government issued and recognized contract.
    Case closed.. LOL This is your argument? That a license is the same as a contract.

    Next, please..

    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Taxes and data mining.
    Not fundamental, legislative, there is an important distinction between the two.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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