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Thread: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

  1. #201
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    How does same sex parents stack up against State run orphanages? Probably a lot better. One may say that the "ideal" is one man, one woman. But there are more orphans in the world than families willing to adopt; so we don't have one man and one woman for all needy children. In that case, is it so bad to have a loving, two parent home that isn't one man and one woman? A stable environment by which to grow and live? **** it, stick them in a State home because the State is a better parent than gays? Is that the route you're gonna take here?
    Again, extreme exception to the rule. You're being emotional about it. Stick to the legal aspects. Avoid arguments based on how fair, or unfair, a situational circumstance might be.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    They can adopt, but they cannot intrinsically produce a child meeting the same standards that a heterosexual coupling can. There is zero pressumption that they can by themselves, zero, nadda, zilch.


    Tim-
    There's nothing to say that same sex couples cannot be as good of parents as same sex couples. I mean, we ain't got same sex marriage now and there are a lot of ****ED up kids out there. So obviously just being a heterosexual couple doesn't cut it. Obviously there are many variables which go into proper child raising, including stability of household (over half of all marriages end in divorce; not very stable), and income (homosexuals tend to have better living standards), education, etc. There's a lot in there. So it's not quite right to sit there and say that they can't be as good as heterosexual parents because they can't present the best basis for gender roles and identity to their children. If that's all those kids have to worry about, they're pretty damned well off considering the rest of this mess we've turned into.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Again, extreme exception to the rule. You're being emotional about it. Stick to the legal aspects. Avoid arguments based on how fair, or unfair, a situational circumstance might be.


    Tim-
    It's not an extreme exception to the rule. There are well more orphans world wide than families willing to adopt. That is a statement of fact. Until that statement becomes untrue the whole "gays can't be as good of parents" is a moot point because there are not enough heterosexual families to go around. Less you really want to make the claim that the State would be a better parent than a loving, stable, two parent home. Are you making that argument? Or do you wish to try another deflect statement?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    There is no inalienable right to contract in marriage. I proved that a few weeks ago. Next.


    Tim-
    Contract is a basic right. Marriage is a State issued and recognized contract. You haven't proven anything.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    This isn't algebra. Child-rearing doesn't suddenly become irrelevant to marriage simply because gay couples can adopt. Or, maybe I'm not getting the point you're trying to make?
    The point was that there are "interests" at stake here. One being procreation. Same sex couples obviously cannot procreate. But I asked which other "interests" there are. You said child rearing, but same sex couples can rear a child the same as heterosexual couples since they could adopt. So there's no difference on that issue. What other "interests" are there?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The point was that there are "interests" at stake here. One being procreation. Same sex couples obviously cannot procreate. But I asked which other "interests" there are. You said child rearing, but same sex couples can rear a child the same as heterosexual couples since they could adopt. So there's no difference on that issue. What other "interests" are there?
    Relevance? None of this addresses my original point: that there is no truth to the claim that "procreation would have to be a prerequisite for marriage if it were a government interest."

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There's nothing to say that same sex couples cannot be as good of parents as same sex couples. I mean, we ain't got same sex marriage now and there are a lot of ****ED up kids out there. So obviously just being a heterosexual couple doesn't cut it. Obviously there are many variables which go into proper child raising, including stability of household (over half of all marriages end in divorce; not very stable), and income (homosexuals tend to have better living standards), education, etc. There's a lot in there. So it's not quite right to sit there and say that they can't be as good as heterosexual parents because they can't present the best basis for gender roles and identity to their children. If that's all those kids have to worry about, they're pretty damned well off considering the rest of this mess we've turned into.
    All things being equal, there is plenty of data. Of course it all rests on what you decide is a virtue, and what is not. Is a healthy stable homosexual union better than a dirt bag trialer trash heterosexual couple? Yeah, sure it is, but now compare that same scenario with the healthy stable heterosexual couple, and look at the variables that determine what is, and what is not the more ideal standard for raising children. I think history provides the answer. Besides, I already stipulated in my opinion to the judge that, there isn't enough data to form a causative conclusion about homosexual parenting.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Contract is a basic right. Marriage is a State issued and recognized contract. You haven't proven anything.
    When the state ingnores the tenants of a marriage contract, it invalidates the right as fundamental to the marriage. In no fault divorce, the "state" does exactly that. Thus, there is no fundamental right of contract in marriage. next..


    Tim-
    Last edited by Hicup; 08-17-10 at 01:27 PM.
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Relevance? None of this addresses my original point: that there is no truth to the claim that "procreation would have to be a prerequisite for marriage if it were a government interest."
    But I'm trying to gauge what that government interest is. Clearly there is procreation. But it's not "the" interest, right? It's "an" interest. Well that's the one and only difference between same sex couples and hetero couples that I can come up with. All other things are capable of being done by both sets. So it's either "the" interest; which is no problem seeing as with immigration we're at replacement so we don't need to worry about everyone reproducing. Or there are other "interests" which are being violated so that you can lead this claim against same sex marriage. I'm want to know what those interests are and if the violation of those interests excuses government force against the rights and liberties of the individual. I don't see why people are so afraid of answering questions.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    When the state ingnores the tenants of a marriage contract, it invalidates the right as fundamental to the marriage contract. In no fault divorce, the "state" does exactly that. Thus, there is no fundamental right of contract in marriage. next..


    Tim-
    Government oversees the execution of contract and arbitrates when parties in contract are in dispute. Including having procedures by which a contract can be dissolved if both parties agree or if something illegal had taken place during the execution of the contract. No fault divorce was constructed in this light (both parties agree) due to the high frequency of divorce. Thus it is still a government issued and recognized contract and the individual has right to contract.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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