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Thread: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

  1. #181
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    These are all examples of exceptions, they are NOT the rule. Society does have a vested interest in promoting, and even giving special recognition to heterosexual couplings. It is pressumed intrinsically that the heterosexual coupling will procreate, whereas there is NO pressumption that a homosexual coupling will.
    Regardless of whether is the exception or not, the ability is still there and it is not isolated instances. You can not use something that can be ROUTINELY done currently as justification for violating the constitution. It does not reach an important state interest, nor have you demonstrated substantially that it does.

    Procreation is not an important state interest. We are not lacking in the number of individuals in this country, it is inherent in humans to wish to procreate so such will happen without government involvement, there is no important state interest in pushing for procreation.

    There could be important state interest in providing stable family situations for children, however to say that it would have to apply for ALL children. A Same Sex Couple is a more stable environment for a child than living in a foster home, or than living with a single parent, and there is legitimate evidence out there to suggest its as stable as a heterosexual couple.

    Enough said. Look, Zyphlin, you can't get around this. There is no way to argue that the homosexual coupling offers the same, or equal intrinsic value to society. It simply does not exist.
    Don't have to, you've not shown in any way information that leads me to believe there is an "important" state interest in the state rewarding procreation specifically, nor have you in any way countered the notion that there are a MULTITUDE of ways individuals can still get married now in which one can presume they will not procreate. All you state is "thats an exception". That's not disproving, that's copping out.

  2. #182
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Where is the freedom to force the people to change society for no good reason?
    9th amendment. Society has no rights, only individuals have rights. If society is set against the rights and liberties of a portion of its populace, society must change so that it honors those rights and liberties. Simple as that.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #183
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Actually I did. I enjoy seeing the rights of the voters enforced by the courts.
    Yet we are not a pure democracy. So the "rights" of the voters to create and enforce law is tempered by the rights of the minority. If you violate those, the majority cannot have its way. Well, not justly anyway. You can force it if you're ok with tyranny.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    What concerns me about some of these comments is that they are very similar to those made by segregationists during the civil rights struggle. Should states have had the right to decide segregation?!!!!!!!!!
    Not only that, ironically they are using one of the tools of the old racists. The marriage license. That was created to prevent interracial marriage. Now it's being used to prevent same sex marriage. I guess bigotry never learns.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    How about being on the side that is the most ideal to society.. That's the side I wanne be on.


    Tim-
    I'd rather be on the side that best upholds the rights and liberties of the individual.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Except for one can not claim that procreation is the reason that the government has a vested interest in marriage. To do so one would need to have procreation being needed for marriage. It is not.
    If anything, procreation (or rather, "procreative potential") is "an" interest, not "the" interest - that alone negates your conclusion that "procreation would be needed for marriage."

  7. #187
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yet we are not a pure democracy. So the "rights" of the voters to create and enforce law is tempered by the rights of the minority. If you violate those, the majority cannot have its way. Well, not justly anyway. You can force it if you're ok with tyranny.
    We are a republic not a democracy with the right to vote on issues that can be made into law. Are you claiming the right to vote on a proposition by the people is illegal?
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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  8. #188
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Regardless of whether is the exception or not, the ability is still there and it is not isolated instances. You can not use something that can be ROUTINELY done currently as justification for violating the constitution. It does not reach an important state interest, nor have you demonstrated substantially that it does.

    Procreation is not an important state interest. We are not lacking in the number of individuals in this country, it is inherent in humans to wish to procreate so such will happen without government involvement, there is no important state interest in pushing for procreation.

    There could be important state interest in providing stable family situations for children, however to say that it would have to apply for ALL children. A Same Sex Couple is a more stable environment for a child than living in a foster home, or than living with a single parent, and there is legitimate evidence out there to suggest its as stable as a heterosexual couple.



    Don't have to, you've not shown in any way information that leads me to believe there is an "important" state interest in the state rewarding procreation specifically, nor have you in any way countered the notion that there are a MULTITUDE of ways individuals can still get married now in which one can presume they will not procreate. All you state is "thats an exception". That's not disproving, that's copping out.
    I knew I shouldn't have checked in.

    I did provide a legal basis for my argument. Pressumption, and intrinsic procreative value to society. You just don't like it. If it's not intrinsic to the heterosexual bonding as applied to their gender roles, then how fundamental is gender as a criteria for deciding whether or not to afford any fundamental standing as a class or group of people?

    What, outside of procreation are the fundamental basis for the State in recognizing marriage? What is the States vested interst in it? What? So we can divy up the assets in divorce? I ask you, outside of procreative value, what is the states vested interest in marrage? What out of those 1000 or so rights afforded heterosexual couples is intrinsic to the marriage, and the states vested interest?

    This outta be good?


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

  9. #189
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    If anything, procreation (or rather, "procreative potential") is "an" interest, not "the" interest - that alone negates your conclusion that "procreation would be needed for marriage."
    So what are the other interests then and rank them. Because procreation seems to me the only thing that separates homosexual marriage and heterosexual marriage (though adoptions can occur). If it's just "an" interest, not "the" interest; then there are others and perhaps others ranked higher. So why is it ok to ban a group from marriage, from exercising their right to contract, if you have violated just "an" interest? There has to either be other interests violated or it has to be "the" interest. So what are these other interests? And is it enough to justly infringe upon the rights of others?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #190
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    We are a republic not a democracy with the right to vote on issues that can be made into law. Are you claiming the right to vote on a proposition by the people is illegal?
    It is not illegal by any means, but certainly unconstitutional for the whims of a majority to be forced upon the powerless minority. Read the Federalist Papers and in particular Madison when he talks about the dangers of "mob" rule. Thus the founders created a republic that would insulate the nation from the dangers of majority opinion and votes.

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