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Thread: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    The ONLY argument for "Gay Marriage" is that societal norms have changed. What was once considered aberrant behavior society did not approve of, has become acceptable behavior that many believe deserves to be placed along side Heterosexual Relationships.
    Seriously, Vicchio, your view on Gay Rights and your understanding of the legal issues involved is way too limited for you to comment in your on thread.

    Basically, homophobes and those with bigoted views shouldn't be starting threads on civil rights issues--their fear-based prejudices prevent them from having any rational opinion or thoughts.

    "The only argument" ... when you start of saying something that ignorant, it's as if you haven't been following the case at all and you understand nothing about the 14th amendment issues.

    Perhaps you should read up on the legal issues, the real "arguments" made by both sides.

    Good luck. And keep in mind, you can't catch homosexuality, you have to be born with it.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    This is a good call by the judges. This is a highly contenious issue pitting the people against the constitutionality of an issue, and is surely going to rise to the highest court in the land. As such, no real action of change should probably occur until its settled while at the same time it should be pushed forward quickly to be sure it IS settled.

    I think it will get overturned at the Surpreme court, and it absolutely should if it goes up based on the gender argument. I'm less sure how I feel if it gets pushed up as a sexual orientation argument, though in part I feel like the Surpeme Court using it as an oppertunity to set legal precedence to apply medium-tier scrutiny to sexual oreintation would not be a bad thing.

    However, regardless of how I feel or wish it to go under the Supreme Court, until such time putting a halt to it is the wise and correct option.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Except, of course, that black people are black.. They are innately black, immutable even. Gay's not so, eh? My argument would not work against a black person, nor do I claim it would, so it's not "exactly" the same is it?




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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Mr. V, I am amazed at your bias in complaining about the "Godwining" of the issue by those on the side of allowing SSM based on pointing it to race while you continually ignore people on your side "Godwining" it by pointing to Polygamy, pedophilia, and Beastaility.

    In one case, people are arguing that the 14th amendment makes discriminating against SSM unconstitutional. They reference race because race is the issue of precedence with regards to the 14th amendment applying to marriage. Its DIRECTLY connected.

    In the other case, polygamy is not recognized by any scientific authority as an orientation, nor is there any discrimination based on race with regards to it, so there's little to no connection to it in relation to using it to counter the argument made by many in favor of SSM. Its comparable in regards to the societal acceptance of it, but honestly the only people I ever see arguing about SSM from that stand point is people AGAINST it creating a strawman that somehow that is the reason people are saying it should be legalized.

    In regards to Beastiality and Pedophlia, in both they're not related in any way to SSM arguments because in both cases its situations where those on the other side of the "relationship" are incapable of legally entering into such a contract as marriage based on the mental and cognitive requirements for such.

    At least race DIRECTLY applies to the arguments people are making with regards to the 14th amendment and SSM. Polygamy, Pedophilia, and Beastiality have nothing to do with countering said arguments.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Seriously, Vicchio, your view on Gay Rights and your understanding of the legal issues involved is way too limited for you to comment in your on thread.

    Basically, homophobes and those with bigoted views shouldn't be starting threads on civil rights issues--their fear-based prejudices prevent them from having any rational opinion or thoughts.

    "The only argument" ... when you start of saying something that ignorant, it's as if you haven't been following the case at all and you understand nothing about the 14th amendment issues.

    Perhaps you should read up on the legal issues, the real "arguments" made by both sides.

    Good luck. And keep in mind, you can't catch homosexuality, you have to be born with it.
    Listen to yourself. You couldn't debate my point, instead you loaded a post attacking me, calling me a bigot, a homophobe based on what sir? Based on what?

    Your OWN ignorance, and bigotry, your OWN arrogance and EGO. Redress, hardly one to pass up a chance to attack my ideas, presented a well structured discussion, you? That was far beyond your limited capabilities.

    Tell me Hazlnut, where was my statement WRONG.

    Society historically has rejected Gay Relationships, Gay = an Aberrant Behavior that Society did not approve of. Now we are faced with not only changing that belief, but elevating such relationships as being equal with straight relationships.

    No where in that analysis can you find hate or bigotry, but there is plenty to be found in the waste of thought you presented.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Listen to yourself. You couldn't debate my point, instead you loaded a post attacking me, calling me a bigot, a homophobe based on what sir? Based on what?

    Your OWN ignorance, and bigotry, your OWN arrogance and EGO. Redress, hardly one to pass up a chance to attack my ideas, presented a well structured discussion, you? That was far beyond your limited capabilities.

    Tell me Hazlnut, where was my statement WRONG.

    Society historically has rejected Gay Relationships, Gay = an Aberrant Behavior that Society did not approve of. Now we are faced with not only changing that belief, but elevating such relationships as being equal with straight relationships.

    No where in that analysis can you find hate or bigotry, but there is plenty to be found in the waste of thought you presented.
    Careful, you talking to a credentialed attorney.
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Mr. V, I am amazed at your bias in complaining about the "Godwining" of the issue by those on the side of allowing SSM based on pointing it to race while you continually ignore people on your side "Godwining" it by pointing to Polygamy, pedophilia, and Beastaility.
    No, those are examples of slippery slope, at least in regards to the first two. Bestiality sadly has made it own inroads elsewhere.

    There is a difference Z, between making the case that if Marriage is no longer One man, One woman, why cant it be between three loving men? Or two men and a woman?

    Slippery Slope.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    In one case, people are arguing that the 14th amendment makes discriminating against SSM unconstitutional. They reference race because race is the issue of precedence with regards to the 14th amendment applying to marriage. Its DIRECTLY connected.
    Funny how, until this judge created that argument, that the 14th Amendment was rarely if ever brought up in these debates. I reject this claim as nothing more then an activist judge creating a reason to make a ruling he wanted. If the SCOTUS upholds his argument, THEN you have a case, until then... it's theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    In the other case, polygamy is not recognized by any scientific authority as an orientation, nor is there any discrimination based on race with regards to it, so there's little to no connection to it in relation to using it to counter the argument made by many in favor of SSM. Its comparable in regards to the societal acceptance of it, but honestly the only people I ever see arguing about SSM from that stand point is people AGAINST it creating a strawman that somehow that is the reason people are saying it should be legalized.
    Again, slippery slope argument, different animal, you know better then this Z.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    In regards to Beastiality and Pedophlia, in both they're not related in any way to SSM arguments because in both cases its situations where those on the other side of the "relationship" are incapable of legally entering into such a contract as marriage based on the mental and cognitive requirements for such.
    On the face of it, I agree with you completely. However, aren't pedophiles compelled to behave the way they do? Do they not say they cannot help themselves? Don't "animal Lovers" say the same? It's "Genetic"! (just showing as you are trying to with the 14th, how they relate)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    At least race DIRECTLY applies to the arguments people are making with regards to the 14th amendment and SSM. Polygamy, Pedophilia, and Beastiality have nothing to do with countering said arguments.
    Slippery slope Vs. one Judges theoretical justification for overturning the will of the people.

    Honestly? Lose lose for everyone at this point.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Careful, you talking to a credentialed attorney.
    I feel for his clients.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    No, those are examples of slippery slope, at least in regards to the first two. Bestiality sadly has made it own inroads elsewhere.

    There is a difference Z, between making the case that if Marriage is no longer One man, One woman, why cant it be between three loving men? Or two men and a woman?

    Slippery Slope
    Slippery slope is a fallacy. Additionally, Slippery Slope is only useful when the reasonings behind one thing can be applied to the other which can not be said with regards to the 14th amendment issue.

    Funny how, until this judge created that argument, that the 14th Amendment was rarely if ever brought up in these debates. I reject this claim as nothing more then an activist judge creating a reason to make a ruling he wanted. If the SCOTUS upholds his argument, THEN you have a case, until then... it's theory.
    The 14th amendment was routinely brought up. The Equal Protection Clause is routinely used as a means of arguing why Gay Marriage should be alloud. Granted, its usually people basing it of sexual orientation rather than gender.

    If you want to talk about gender, I'll happily go back and find every mention of me saying it is about gender. I won't speak for others, but I know both Myself and Rivvrat explicitely were stating this was a gender issue for some time now before this judge looked at it.

    Again, slippery slope argument, different animal, you know better then this Z.
    For the slippery slope argument to be useful it has to have some actual backing in how what they're suggesting is the reason that one thing should be legal can apply to other.

    You're exactly right about the legitimacy of the Slippery Slope argument...IF people were arguing that gay marriage should be made legal because society is okay with it.

    However that's not what's being discussed in this case, its being discussed with regards to the 14th amendment, and there's been no one on this forum whose shown how polygamy in any way could be considered anything but at the lowest tier of scrutiny of the 14th.

    On the face of it, I agree with you completely. However, aren't pedophiles compelled to behave the way they do? Do they not say they cannot help themselves? Don't "animal Lovers" say the same? It's "Genetic"! (just showing as you are trying to with the 14th, how they relate)
    Read my post with regards to those two, the issue with them is not the inability to apply to the 14th but rather to do with the contractual ability of the other "individual". Age based discrimination in regards to contracts has been found allowable under the law, as has a "juvenile" status. Animals have no way of legitimately cognitively consenting to enter into a contract. The issues against those two things has nothing to do with the 14th but with regards to other laws present on the books. Even if you COULD put forth a legitimate argument that they should be middle teir scrutiny, the argument for state interest in denying it is far greater because it is not societal issues one points at but actual legal issues regarding contracts that shows the legitimate state interest in denying it.

    Slippery slope Vs. one Judges theoretical justification for overturning the will of the people.
    As above.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Semi-related comment: Has any one else noticed that the prop 8 ruling has gotten the headlines and the discussion, but it's the DOMA ruling that is the big one in the SSM fight. If DOMA goes down, and there is a very good chance it will, then this leads to states and the federal government having to recognize SSMs as just like traditional marriages. At that point, it's all over for opponents of SSM.
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