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Thread: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Why shouldn't they?
    Because he says so.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    The ONLY argument for "Gay Marriage" is that societal norms have changed. What was once considered aberrant behavior society did not approve of, has become acceptable behavior that many believe deserves to be placed along side Heterosexual Relationships.

    The debate would be interesting if both sides were honest about the issue, but NEITHER are. I'm not, You Star isn't, CC isn't Redress... we all have vested EMOTIONAL reasons for our stances. This makes all of us, imperfect messengers of our positions. It gets quite fired up, look how many posts and pages a Gay anything thread gets.

    What's really fubar, IMHO, is the use of Godwin's Law (Modified) by those in favor of SSM. If anyone makes an argument against SSM, invariably we'll spend pages discussing how, or how not alike the struggle for Gay Rights is like Race Issues. It's REALLY annoying because it's a pure emotional argument. Sorry guys, but you cannot pull race into everything, that's as bad as others comparing X to Nazi's.

    Let's break it down to brass tacks here.

    The REAL issue is, do we as a society, wish to accept two men, or two women in a relationship as being the same as a traditional Male/Female bonding?

    That's what this ALL boils down too. Everything else is just... side fluff and reasons to pull heart strings to avoid facing the CORE issue.

    Society through the ballot box, has repeatedly said "No, no we are not". This is not in dispute. California, one of the most GAY FRIENDLY places in the USA, if not THE most Gay State, rejected raising homosexual relationships to the same importance and acceptance as heterosexual relationships.

    That should stop and give ALL of us pause here to consider, strip away the emotional baggage, and look at the results! That DOES matter.

    Now we have this case working it's way up to the Supreme Court, which will nominally debate the Constitutionality of the measure. Do the people of the various States have a vested interest in this, and can they enact possibly discriminating laws? But they also must consider the effect on society their decision will have. They ALL will, and they all do. It's human nature.

    I believe the States can provide the LEGAL framework, through civil unions that allow SSC (same-sex couples) to receive the same legal rights as any other recognized union, without forcing society to have to say SS relationships equal to OSM. Is it a cop out? No, I think it's finding common ground, and letting society come to grips with the issue.

    Please return to your regularly scheduled emotionally driven content.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Legally, providing that framework to make civil unions the same as marriage would be exceedingly difficult. Well over 1k federal benefits alone to marriage. Further, the question has to arise is if civil unions are exactly the same as marriage, then why the distinction?

    The arguments also go somewhat beyond what you are saying. You are, as you admit, biased, and I think that is why you are missing these. SSM(which I do prefer to GM, thanks MrV) is, to my way of thinking(with it's admitted bias), good for society as a whole. The institution of marriage provides for social stability. Marriages are more stable relationships. This is especially important when considering, as I documented earlier, the vast number of gay people with children, or who want children. Marriage provides the best possible arrangement for raising children, all other things being equal. I think this is an important argument, and simply cannot be discounted.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Legally, providing that framework to make civil unions the same as marriage would be exceedingly difficult. Well over 1k federal benefits alone to marriage. Further, the question has to arise is if civil unions are exactly the same as marriage, then why the distinction?

    The arguments also go somewhat beyond what you are saying. You are, as you admit, biased, and I think that is why you are missing these. SSM(which I do prefer to GM, thanks MrV) is, to my way of thinking(with it's admitted bias), good for society as a whole. The institution of marriage provides for social stability. Marriages are more stable relationships. This is especially important when considering, as I documented earlier, the vast number of gay people with children, or who want children. Marriage provides the best possible arrangement for raising children, all other things being equal. I think this is an important argument, and simply cannot be discounted.
    The distinction, is what SOCIETY wishes to accept, not what you or I are willing to do, SOCIETY. You ignored that part to push why YOU think SSM (To be honest, I saw peeps were using that, and I'm all for saving keystrokes) is good. That's fine. Society isn't ready yet to elevate the SSC to "Marriage". YOU think SSM is good for children, more seem to disagree. Please, don't post studies or whatever, read em, seen em, that's not the point.

    That's really what it's about though Redress. Steve and Joe, Man and Man? What the hell do you call a couple like that? I've never bothered to learn... ah well, anyhoots, Steve and Joe might be the worlds best parenting couple, but if Society isn't ready to accept them as a married couple... why force the issue? That's my stance.

    Civil Unions providing all the same legal benefits and coverage, lets society get used to the idea, and revisit it later on.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    The distinction, is what SOCIETY wishes to accept, not what you or I are willing to do, SOCIETY. You ignored that part to push why YOU think SSM (To be honest, I saw peeps were using that, and I'm all for saving keystrokes) is good. That's fine. Society isn't ready yet to elevate the SSC to "Marriage". YOU think SSM is good for children, more seem to disagree. Please, don't post studies or whatever, read em, seen em, that's not the point.

    That's really what it's about though Redress. Steve and Joe, Man and Man? What the hell do you call a couple like that? I've never bothered to learn... ah well, anyhoots, Steve and Joe might be the worlds best parenting couple, but if Society isn't ready to accept them as a married couple... why force the issue? That's my stance.

    Civil Unions providing all the same legal benefits and coverage, lets society get used to the idea, and revisit it later on.
    I just call Steve and Joe people. I don't do a whole lot of labeling.

    I think you misunderstand what I was saying, for whatever reason, my poor explanation, or your not following, or a combination of both. The reason society should accept SSM, and should legalize it, is for those reasons. The court may(I suspect will) take the decision out of the hands of people though. If the twin cases making their way through end up the way they very will might, SSM will be legal in the US sooner rather than later. Then the only option is amending the constitution, which neither side can muster the votes for.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I just call Steve and Joe people. I don't do a whole lot of labeling.

    I think you misunderstand what I was saying, for whatever reason, my poor explanation, or your not following, or a combination of both. The reason society should accept SSM, and should legalize it, is for those reasons. The court may(I suspect will) take the decision out of the hands of people though. If the twin cases making their way through end up the way they very will might, SSM will be legal in the US sooner rather than later. Then the only option is amending the constitution, which neither side can muster the votes for.
    And what if the SCOTUS backs the People's right to say no to SSM?
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    And what if the SCOTUS backs the People's right to say no to SSM?
    Then voting will have to be the method to get SSM implemented. Neither side is going to successfully get a constitutional amendment passed. Right now that is where the ball is, in the courts. Until they finish, things are in a kinda limbo.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    The REAL issue is, do we as a society, wish to accept two men, or two women in a relationship as being the same as a traditional Male/Female bonding?
    I agree.

    Society through the ballot box, has repeatedly said "No, no we are not". This is not in dispute.
    I'm afraid this is the most inane argument you can make in America regarding any issue. If a majority of Americans supported abortion, would that change your opinion of it? Would you be any less inclined to fight against a perceived injustice just because a majority was in favor of it? Just because a majority at one point in history holds a position does not mean that position is socially just. At various points in history, it was seen as socially just by a majority to deny women the right to vote and hold office, to own another man, to segregate people based on the color of their skin, etc. The majority was wrong. People who support same sex marriage feel that the majority is wrong in this case as well. And don't be confused, because I'm not suggesting that has anything to do with women's suffrage or race; I'm only pointing out the fact that a majority is not always right and people will do what they feel is socially just.

    No, I think it's finding common ground, and letting society come to grips with the issue.
    Ideally, yes that would be great common ground. Realistically, it is not for 2 reasons.

    1. Your side would not likely concede civil unions if we weren't asking for same sex marriage. You perceive homosexuality as a choice and sin that must be diminished and eradicated from society and so unless we asked for the sky, you would have no reason to offer a common ground.
    2. Your side sees civil unions as a stepping stone to same sex marriage. Arguably it is a stepping stone as is the case in California right now. However, it is your side that has taken the step of writing state Constitutional amendments in several states prohibiting not only same sex marriage but civil unions. You can't offer common ground that your side is trying to eradicate.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 08-17-10 at 06:28 AM.

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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    The debate would be interesting if both sides were honest about the issue, but NEITHER are. I'm not, You Star isn't, CC isn't Redress... we all have vested EMOTIONAL reasons for our stances. This makes all of us, imperfect messengers of our positions. It gets quite fired up, look how many posts and pages a Gay anything thread gets.

    Society through the ballot box, has repeatedly said "No, no we are not". This is not in dispute. California, one of the most GAY FRIENDLY places in the USA, if not THE most Gay State, rejected raising homosexual relationships to the same importance and acceptance as heterosexual relationships.

    That should stop and give ALL of us pause here to consider, strip away the emotional baggage, and look at the results! That DOES matter.
    If our opinions are flawed by being driven by emotion, then so are the people who voted for prop 8.

    The argument for same sex marriage is constitutionally driven, and the fact that you're emotional about something doesn't mean you can't be rational about it. A rational argument stands on its own. The fact that the supreme court has defined marriage as a fundamental right and equal protection is provided for homosexuals outlines a simple and rational argument for same sex marriage. The opposition's argument is irrational and emotional and, frankly, unconstitutional.
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    Re: Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Yes...it is a very good sign for those of us on the side of love against hate. The ninth circuit is expediting the appeal process which, if you read the article, is a good indication that they are likely to side with those opposing prop 8.
    It's the Ninth Circus Court, would we expect anything else?
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