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Teachers union threatens ‘massive boycott’ of Los Angeles Times

Harry Guerrilla said:
A series of tests over multiple years, possibly.

I don't agree with taylorist style schooling, by and large these people do.
When they are put to the fire, which should support their beliefs, they retreat. :shrug:

Either you can impart knowledge in a uniform, managed way for all students or you can't.
All this does is show that the teachers are doing their job poorly or the system itself is set up wrong.
Bad for the establishment both ways.
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Measuring a test in the same community over time to gague improvement, that I could buy, but these anti-teacher folks often just want to take scores without context and condemn teachers who have lower scores without looking at the raw materials they are given... pathetic...
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Yep, the state and the feds shouldn't be managing education.
These type of things support my argument.
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I have no problem with State involvement as that is within the Constitutional purvue of the state and local governments, but I agree, get the federal government out of it in most cases...

Having said that, NH has limited state involvement compared to other states and it is one of the highest achieving states in the nation...
 
The Giant Noodle said:
then who???
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Parents and community, it worked just fine before we got the feds involved and made schooling mandatory.

Crazy thing is people believe that before the feds stepped in, that most people were illiterate.
Taint true.
In 1870, 80% of the white population was completely literate and was climbing through out the rest of the 1800's before the feds started meddling with education.
(Sorry have to make that distinction on race because Black people weren't really considered equal at that time.)
 
ludahai said:
Measuring a test in the same community over time to gague improvement, that I could buy, but these anti-teacher folks often just want to take scores without context and condemn teachers who have lower scores without looking at the raw materials they are given... pathetic...
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I'm not a fan of institutional education.
This is what happens when even states have some sort of control.
It allows teachers to unionize, bureaucrats to waste and parents to get lazy.
All at the detriment of the student.
 
ludahai said:
I have no problem with State involvement as that is within the Constitutional purvue of the state and local governments, but I agree, get the federal government out of it in most cases...

Having said that, NH has limited state involvement compared to other states and it is one of the highest achieving states in the nation...
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State involvement is less bad but still not right.
I don't want my kid subject to the possibility of learning about Jesus riding dinosaurs.
 
The problem with testing is that teachers end up teaching kids how to pass the test instead of really teaching kids the 3 R's, or anything else that is going to be beneficial to them in later grades, college, or even life. It is no wonder so many kids are flunking out of school these days, and whose fault is it? The kids and their parents must take part of the blame, and I heap the rest of it on school districts, which don't give a damn about anything else but having an appearance that they are teaching, when they are not doing anything like that at all.

Yes, I live in Houston, which is a long way from LA, but they do have issues of the LA times at the news stand downtown. I am going to purchase one to show my support for the paper.
 
danarhea said:
The problem with testing is that teachers end up teaching kids how to pass the test instead of really teaching kids the 3 R's, or anything else that is going to be beneficial to them in later grades, college, or even life. It is no wonder so many kids are flunking out of school these days, and whose fault is it? The kids and their parents must take part of the blame, and I heap the rest of it on school districts, which don't give a damn about anything else but having an appearance that they are teaching, when they are not doing anything like that at all.

Yes, I live in Houston, which is a long way from LA, but they do have issues of the LA times at the news stand downtown. I am going to purchase one to show my support for the paper.
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The school my kids are supposed to go to doesn't even go that far.

It's a bottom performer with the feds AYP, so what do they do?
Build a brand new facility for them.:roll:

That's like shoveling **** from one hole to another and calling it improved.
 
VanceMack said:
Can you IMAGINE grading someone based on test performance??? No WONDER the teachers union is so upset.
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Good teachers often inherit the consequences of bad teachers who taught their students before them. There is a fundamental difference.
 
VanceMack said:
Teachers union threatens

The Los Angeles teachers union president said Sunday he was organizing a “massive boycott” of The Times after the newspaper began publishing a series of articles that uses student test scores to estimate the effectiveness of district teachers.

“You’re leading people in a dangerous direction, making it seem like you can judge the quality of a teacher by … a test,” said A.J. Duffy, president of United Teachers Los Angeles, which has more than 40,000 members.

Can you IMAGINE grading someone based on test performance??? No WONDER the teachers union is so upset.
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I can't believe that union president actually said that with a straight face.
 
ludahai said:
You have the same teacher, both very competant -- you put one in a culture of educational excellence and another in the inner city and which one do YOU think will get better test results???
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I suspect they probably arent just randomly testing and throwing teachers to the wolves. But since teachers and unions are SO opposed to standards (and golly...I wonder why...) then what would you propose as a measure of teacher effectiveness?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm not a fan of institutional education.
This is what happens when even states have some sort of control.
It allows teachers to unionize, bureaucrats to waste and parents to get lazy.
All at the detriment of the student.
Click to expand...

I did not join a union when I was teaching in the States, and this was true of a large number of other teachers at the school I taught at. I was fortunate in that I was in a good school with a supportive community. I have no problems with unionization because in some places it is definately needed and in general teachers are still underpaid considering the professional qualifications that are required to be an eductator.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
State involvement is less bad but still not right.
I don't want my kid subject to the possibility of learning about Jesus riding dinosaurs.
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Then send your kid to a private school.

I am not crazy about that either, but in local communities it would be even worse, I assure you...
 
VanceMack said:
I suspect they probably arent just randomly testing and throwing teachers to the wolves. But since teachers and unions are SO opposed to standards (and golly...I wonder why...) then what would you propose as a measure of teacher effectiveness?
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I am a teacher and I support standards, though many of the standards they are making I think are superficial and poorly thought out. I would rather focus on developing critical thinking skills (among high school students, which is what I teach) rather than focus on wrote memorization, which is what most of these tests encourate.

I would use a combination of observation and results, but those results have to be looked at over time with a clearly developed baseline. I taught a lot of ESL kids when I was in the States. Great kids and I loved the work, but it was hard. And if you thought these kids were going to score 500 on the verbal part of their SAT, you had another thing coming. Not fair to compare the scores of that teacher to another who is teaching AP classes. Also, it is hard to compare year to year because students change from year to year. One year, I might teach ESL level 1 students, the next I may have Level 3 and mainstream classes. You can't compare the results from year to year.
 
danarhea said:
The problem with testing is that teachers end up teaching kids how to pass the test
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I have two kids, and Florida does a pretty comprehensive job of testing them annually from 1st grade on up. If the teachers are teaching the basics, the kids will pass the test. And, if the teachers are teaching to the test, that's good, because it means that the kids are learning the basics.

The problem is that in too many places, like Los Angeles, the teacher's union is never in favor of putting proven teaching methodologies into the classroom, training teachers in those methods, and holding them accountable to use them. The teachers unions wield an unhealthy level of control, and you have many kids in many neighborhoods who aren't learning to read in the elementary schools, and then failing all the way up.

I find this particularly annoying because WE KNOW HOW TO TEACH KIDS TO READ. It is not rocket science. The teachers unions want us to throw more money at the problem (primarily into their pockets), but that is not the issue. The issue is teachers effectively delivering content to student, engaging students in learning, using proven methods (direct instruction + phonics versus the thoroughly discredited whole language method), and getting rid of the dead wood teachers who don't give a ****.

And yeah, Houson has these same issues. I've dealt with them both at firsthand.
 
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ludahai said:
I did not join a union when I was teaching in the States, and this was true of a large number of other teachers at the school I taught at. I was fortunate in that I was in a good school with a supportive community. I have no problems with unionization because in some places it is definately needed and in general teachers are still underpaid considering the professional qualifications that are required to be an eductator.
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Pay should be negotiated on an individual level.
There are a lot of teachers and a lot of people who want to be teachers.
They shouldn't have high pay because we've built it into being some holy rollin, noble profession.
It's a job.

Unionizing has caused disastrous results, especially because your customers are captive to you.
They have to buy the product whether they want it or not.

ludahai said:
Then send your kid to a private school.

I am not crazy about that either, but in local communities it would be even worse, I assure you...
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It's not right that I still have to pay for the local school.
My wife instructs my kids.

That's why I said it shouldn't be compulsory, not to forget that the budget would be lean and based on cost efficiency.

I've had it with state managed education.
The same things have been happening for at least 30 years and they have no intention of really changing for the positive, all the while a bunch of children fall to the way side because of their inaction.

They have had their chance, they need the boot in total.
 
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Homeschooled kids are frequently, if not always the top percentile of educated per grade level in the United States.


j-mac
 
arizona, arkansas, colorado, kentucky, louisiana, mississippi, missouri, new mexico, north carolina, utah, west virginia, and wyoming

compare the rankings of these non-teacher-union states with those of the other states with teachers' unions

compare them to the educational attainment in finland, sweden, denmark, germany and japan ... where the unions are strong and the teachers are well compensated

and to those who insist that it is the teacher and not the student and their parents, who is to be found responsible when educational achievement is not attained ... just look around and compare the high scoring schools and the low scoring schools. it will be rare to find instances where the affluent schools do not have high achieving students and the impoverished locales do not have a disproportionate number of low scoring students. in my community, those exceptions were the result of placing highly desirable magnet programs in the distressed community schools, which attracted the high achieving students from the more affluent neighborhoods

we can correlate inferior academic achievement to economic environment, and to states without teacher unionization ... neither of those indicators point to the teachers as being the problem with our present education system
 
j-mac said:
Homeschooled kids are frequently, if not always the top percentile of educated per grade level in the United States.


j-mac
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nope. the data does not support that. they tend to be average ... with very wide swings in individual performance. in many instances, the tests administered to home schooled students are not like those administered to public school students. that results in an apples to oranges comparison. additionally, there is nothing which prevents the home schooler from being assisted during that exam, unlike in the public schools, which would skew the home school data in its favor

and the private schools tend to perform weaker than the public schools (once the disabled student population the public schools are required to "teach" are eliminated from the scoring models). especially the Christian schools. admittedly, the jesuit schools do exceed public school performance. however, the southern baptist schools turn out students who are very weak academically
 
justabubba said:
nope. the data does not support that. they tend to be average ... with very wide swings in individual performance. in many instances, the tests administered to home schooled students are not like those administered to public school students. that results in an apples to oranges comparison. additionally, there is nothing which prevents the home schooler from being assisted during that exam, unlike in the public schools, which would skew the home school data in its favor

and the private schools tend to perform weaker than the public schools (once the disabled student population the public schools are required to "teach" are eliminated from the scoring models). especially the Christian schools. admittedly, the jesuit schools do exceed public school performance. however, the southern baptist schools turn out students who are very weak academically
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Sorry Bubba, but that would just plainly be wrong....


Dr. Brian Ray, in the most in-depth nationwide study on home education across the United States, collected data on 5,402 students from 1,657 families. Homeschool students’ academic achievement, on average, was significantly above that of public-school students. In addition, the home educated did well even if their parents were not certified teachers and if the state did not highly regulate homeschooling.3
· Home educators are able to be flexible and tailor or customize the curriculum to the needs of each child.
· In study after study, the home educated score better, on average, than those in conventional state-run schools (see table).2

.... Reading Language Math
Public Schools 50 50 50
Home Education 65-80 65-80 65-80

National Home Education Research Institute - Facts on Homeschooling
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j-mac
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Except in Southern Utah, where they're married by age 14.
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Wrong again

MARRIAGE BY MINORS

Applicants under the age of 18 years of age are required to have :

* If the applicant is 16 or 17 years of age, a parent or legal guardian must be present to sign consent.
* If the applicant is 15 years of age, an authorization to marry must be provided by a juvenile judge of the court exercising juvenile jurisdiction in the county where either party to the marriage resides. The written authorization may also be obtained from a court commissioner as permitted by rule of the Judicial Council. Please contact our office for a form. (Section 30-1-9 Marriage by Minors)
* Applicants 14 years of age and younger cannot obtain a marriage license under Utah law.


Utah County Marriage License Requirements

And since "southern Utah" is not its own state the same law applies.
 
j-mac said:
Sorry Bubba, but that would just plainly be wrong....





j-mac
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read this and see:
//www.mensafoundation.org/Sites/foundation/NavigationMenu/Publications/Journal/Samplearticle/SampleArticle.htm

those home schoolers who go to four year colleges have equivalent college performance when compared to those who attended public schools
however, a smaller portion of the home schooled students go on to higher education ... and that is especially pronounced when compared to students in public school honors programs

compared to the the public school graduates, a smaller portion of the home school graduates appear less qualified - or possibly they are only less inclined - to pursue a higher formal education
 
ludahai said:
I am a teacher and I support standards, though many of the standards they are making I think are superficial and poorly thought out. I would rather focus on developing critical thinking skills (among high school students, which is what I teach) rather than focus on wrote memorization, which is what most of these tests encourate.

I would use a combination of observation and results, but those results have to be looked at over time with a clearly developed baseline. I taught a lot of ESL kids when I was in the States. Great kids and I loved the work, but it was hard. And if you thought these kids were going to score 500 on the verbal part of their SAT, you had another thing coming. Not fair to compare the scores of that teacher to another who is teaching AP classes. Also, it is hard to compare year to year because students change from year to year. One year, I might teach ESL level 1 students, the next I may have Level 3 and mainstream classes. You can't compare the results from year to year.
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I am married to an English professor (and me being from the south...oh boy dont we have a lot of fun...) and her family has several teachers as well. I very much value teachers and think they are underpaid and underappreciated. That doesnt change the fact that there are some real piece of **** teachers (like there are professionals in EVERY field) and those people MUST be identified and removed...especially when in such an important role. Teachers HATE testing...God knows I hear it from my relatives all the time. Wah. Our education system is struggling and at SOME point those abject failures have to be identified and removed. People say if you test, then teachers will teach to the test. Well...1-thats only true if they know the test, and 2-Thank GOD...at least they are teaching SOMETHING for a change.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Pay should be negotiated on an individual level.
There are a lot of teachers and a lot of people who want to be teachers.
They shouldn't have high pay because we've built it into being some holy rollin, noble profession.
It's a job.

Unionizing has caused disastrous results, especially because your customers are captive to you.
They have to buy the product whether they want it or not.



It's not right that I still have to pay for the local school.
My wife instructs my kids.

That's why I said it shouldn't be compulsory, not to forget that the budget would be lean and based on cost efficiency.

I've had it with state managed education.
The same things have been happening for at least 30 years and they have no intention of really changing for the positive, all the while a bunch of children fall to the way side because of their inaction.

They have had their chance, they need the boot in total.
Click to expand...

I agree with much of what you say but I DO think teachers should at the very least get paid more...but until they find a way to create a standard then they shouldnt be paid individually. Then salary because poltical...who you know...who you blow...

And I have great respect for homeschoolers, but like people that never have kids have to pay taxes (public schools...greater societal good...all that bull****) then you should still have to pay for public schools. maybe an education voucher would be the way to go for homeschoolers.
 
texmaster said:
Wrong again

MARRIAGE BY MINORS

Applicants under the age of 18 years of age are required to have :

* If the applicant is 16 or 17 years of age, a parent or legal guardian must be present to sign consent.
* If the applicant is 15 years of age, an authorization to marry must be provided by a juvenile judge of the court exercising juvenile jurisdiction in the county where either party to the marriage resides. The written authorization may also be obtained from a court commissioner as permitted by rule of the Judicial Council. Please contact our office for a form. (Section 30-1-9 Marriage by Minors)
* Applicants 14 years of age and younger cannot obtain a marriage license under Utah law.


Utah County Marriage License Requirements

And since "southern Utah" is not its own state the same law applies.
Click to expand...

Im pretty sure she was making a joke...could have applied to just about anywhere.
 
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