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Thread: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Specifically what is dumb? Taxing a negative externality (pollution), protecting infant industries, or is it subsidizing energy alternative products to make them more cost competitive and to encourage growth in this industry?



    Something to keep in mind.
    It's dumb because we are not one big hive society ... if alternative energy cannot make money for individuals it won't fly, no matter the subsidizing or other progressive nonsensical and artificial means to force it.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    When did I ever say we shouldn't look? In fact, implicit in what I did say is that we SHOULD look.

    What I object to is all the flowery hooplah about technology which simply doesn't exist and no one really knows if it CAN exist -- especially when someone is so arrogant as to pin down an exact number of jobs it will create.

    And on top of that, to start trying to kill oil before we even know we can get there at all is stupid beyond measure.
    We need to get serious about our independence from foreign oil. We need to open up ANWR and other places. Big job creater and the money would not be going to our enemies. We need to get serious about nuclear, proven to work and clean. If that would happen I wouldn't be against throwing money at solar or other alternatives.

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Slainte View Post



    I don't think anyone wants to 'kill' oil, indeed, that simply is not possible yet. But oil will steadily become more difficult to access, and therefore more expensive. We need to have developed alternatives that will be economical before the price of oil increases significantly.
    Oil is so difficult to access because Obama/special interest groups are making it more and more difficult to access.

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    I looked into solar panels a while back just to see if I could get off the grid. I came to the same conclusion. As much solar paneling as I'd have to buy to make a dent in my (low) electricity bill, it would take a ridiculously long time to break even. They're gonna have to make huge strides in solar technology before it makes any economic sense.
    I admit I know almost nothing about solar panels. Do they last forever?

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Before anyone gets on the wrong track here, we have 2 energy issues to deal with. They need to be kept apart in debates.

    One is electricity, the other is oil (diesel and gasoline).

    There are LOTS of ways to generate electricity at reasonable cost, there is only one way to make oil.

    The cleanest electricity is nuclear, which is ideally suited for base load. The dirtiest is coal, but it also is ideally suited for base load.
    Base load plants are designed to run 24/7.
    The next cleanest for electricity is natural gas, which is ideally suited for peaking power plants (combined cycle gas turbine) that are turned on/off as needed.
    Those 2 working together could displace coal plants but read this....
    Coal Power Industry: Biggest US Expansion In 2 Decades, Emissions Equivalent To Putting 22 Million Cars On The Road

    Dozens of new coal plants are being built? I guess they are betting that cap and trade will never pass..
    As for wind and solar, they are not alternatives, they are supplements.
    They are too intermittent to be called any thing else.

    When I hear a politician say we can use less oil if only we build more electrical power plants, I want to know what he has been smoking.

    Oil is the harder nut to crack.....no doubt about it...
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post

    When I hear a politician say we can use less oil if only we build more electrical power plants, I want to know what he has been smoking.

    Oil is the harder nut to crack.....no doubt about it...
    Is there much being done by way of turning waste such as garbage, trash, used cooking oil, or fecal matter from people and animals into fuel? Stuff like that... you know using things that cause problems for the environment and turning it into fuel?

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    Is there much being done by way of turning waste such as garbage, trash, used cooking oil, or fecal matter from people and animals into fuel? Stuff like that... you know using things that cause problems for the environment and turning it into fuel?
    Sure, for local use. Some poultry, pig, beef farms use methane digesters to run generators. Landfills make plenty of methane, and larger ones have generators on site. On a small scale, villages in India use methane digesters to turn their human and animal waste into methane which is then piped to their homes for cooking purposes...
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  8. #88
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Before anyone gets on the wrong track here, we have 2 energy issues to deal with. They need to be kept apart in debates.

    One is electricity, the other is oil (diesel and gasoline).

    There are LOTS of ways to generate electricity at reasonable cost, there is only one way to make oil.

    The cleanest electricity is nuclear, which is ideally suited for base load. The dirtiest is coal, but it also is ideally suited for base load.
    Base load plants are designed to run 24/7.
    The next cleanest for electricity is natural gas, which is ideally suited for peaking power plants (combined cycle gas turbine) that are turned on/off as needed.
    Those 2 working together could displace coal plants but read this....
    Coal Power Industry: Biggest US Expansion In 2 Decades, Emissions Equivalent To Putting 22 Million Cars On The Road

    Dozens of new coal plants are being built? I guess they are betting that cap and trade will never pass..
    As for wind and solar, they are not alternatives, they are supplements.
    They are too intermittent to be called any thing else.

    When I hear a politician say we can use less oil if only we build more electrical power plants, I want to know what he has been smoking.

    Oil is the harder nut to crack.....no doubt about it...
    Very good point that oil is the hardest to solve. Boone Pickens ( I know he has interests in nat gas) has talked about retrofitting trucks to run on nat gas versus oil. Also as we restore urban centers that lowers the need to commute. We can also put more effort into helping get shale oil off the ground.

    The oil business knows that without incentives no one will spend the billions needed to build any of this out as they cold turn around and make oil 20 per barrel and kill those investments. This trick has kept us addicted to oil for all these years.

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Very good point that oil is the hardest to solve. Boone Pickens ( I know he has interests in nat gas) has talked about retrofitting trucks to run on nat gas versus oil. Also as we restore urban centers that lowers the need to commute. We can also put more effort into helping get shale oil off the ground.

    The oil business knows that without incentives no one will spend the billions needed to build any of this out as they cold turn around and make oil 20 per barrel and kill those investments. This trick has kept us addicted to oil for all these years.
    Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) is a good fuel for vehicles, and does burn cleaner than gasoline or diesel. It would have to be used where the infrastructure is already in place. Any area that has it for heating homes can add pump stations, and you can even have a compressor at your home.
    Where there are no natural gas pipelines, you would think that propane would be a good choice, but it is more dangerous. Propane is heavier than air, natural gas is lighter than air. So the gas leak heads up away from the car, propane settles along the ground, where it might find a spark or flame to ignite it. And propane has to be manufactured, CNG just needs to be transported. There was a time when gas was just burned off at the well. There was no good way to collect and transport it...
    Oracle of Utah
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  10. #90
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It's dumb because we are not one big hive society ... if alternative energy cannot make money for individuals it won't fly, no matter the subsidizing or other progressive nonsensical and artificial means to force it.
    Good point, so the question to answer is:

    Can renewable energies make money for individuals?

    Lets look at ethanol for example. For that I will refer to the paper Goldenboy219 cited. Ethanol produced in Brazil is cost competitive with oil. Brazil has comparative advantage when producing ethanol. So, to continue the growth of the US ethanol industry we have created a system that subsidizes ethanol ($.51) and places a tariff on ethanol to prevent this subsidy from leaving the country and to protect US industry. Without the subsidy or tariff, ethanol would still be cost competitive only it would be made in Brazil.

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