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Thread: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

  1. #191
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Look at the nature of the "tax cuts". Much of it went to pay down credit card and mortgage debt. That is why we did not get the multiplier effect we expected.
    That's true. But your point does not change the fact that the stimulus reduced taxes. The structure and size of the stimulus tax cuts were a problem. But that doesn't change the fact it reduced taxes, something Apdst is desperately attempting to avoid admitting.

    Was there some short term positives, yes. The question is it woth the long term cost. We will spend about $800 billion on stimulus. That means at a normalized 5% interest rate on the 10 year it will cost us $40 billion per year forever. So many feel that the short term benefit is outweighted by the long term cost.
    True, but that can be said of basically any spending, including debt financed tax cuts. The sad thing is without the lowered taxes and increased demand, we'd be in real pain and people like J-mac and Adpst would be calling for Obama to blow the bank.

    So the next generation will pay $40 billion each year so that we would have a better economy for 1-2 quarters in 2010. I think that is a lousy deal for my son.
    Eh. That's not really the big cost. Worry that your grandchildren will have to pay for $50 trillion in unfunded liabilities. The debt is minor comparatively. As I pointed out before, if Obama and Bush had spent exactly Zero dollars and increased the debt by Zero dollars, we'd still be boned.

    America's unfunded liabilities are far more scary then our debt. But I have never seen a partisan ever admit this.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    That's true. But your point does not change the fact that the stimulus reduced taxes. The structure and size of the stimulus tax cuts were a problem. But that doesn't change the fact it reduced taxes, something Apdst is desperately attempting to avoid admitting.
    If you believe that then you are truly misreading adpst. No one can argue that tucked within the massive porkulus bill that tax breaks for certain behaviors were present. Just as you and other liberals desperately avoid calling them what they are in reality, credits, not cuts.


    True, but that can be said of basically any spending, including debt financed tax cuts. The sad thing is without the lowered taxes and increased demand, we'd be in real pain and people like J-mac and Adpst would be calling for Obama to blow the bank.
    Is that so? You liberals must have one reliable crystal ball that you use. Heck, you can tell what would have happened had Obama taken a different path with the economy, now you can tell what myself and others would have posted? That's impressive. However, you are wrong. Trouble is, we are still going to feel the pain, only when it does hit, Obama policies will have magnified it.

    Eh. That's not really the big cost. Worry that your grandchildren will have to pay for $50 trillion in unfunded liabilities. The debt is minor comparatively. As I pointed out before, if Obama and Bush had spent exactly Zero dollars and increased the debt by Zero dollars, we'd still be boned.

    More like $110 Trillion, or $393K per citizen. And you should ask yourself why that is? Is it less spending, less borrowing? Or is it that Obama has blown a hole in the debt, along with other repub, and liberal politicians that continue to tax, spend, and borrow us out of existence?

    It starts with misrepresenting the difference between a tax cut, and tax credit. Small piece I know, but all in all symptomatic of the larger problem of politicians lying to us.

    U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

    America's unfunded liabilities are far more scary then our debt. But I have never seen a partisan ever admit this.


    Then you are simply not paying attention. Either on purpose, or not.


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  3. #193
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Nice fallacy of changing the subject. Do you reject that the stimulus was 36.6% tax cuts and the rest spending? Tell me how without the stimulus there would be lower taxes and more demand.



    Technically not true. As the Republicans like to point out, much of the business at stake is small businesses reported on schedule C of the form 1040. The same return that various tax credits went to.

    I see you don't want to admit that the stimulus resulted in less taxes and more demand. But I have realized honesty is something you do not think highly of.
    You still haven't shown us who's taxes were cut. There certainly weren't across the board tax cuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    That's true. But your point does not change the fact that the stimulus reduced taxes. The structure and size of the stimulus tax cuts were a problem. But that doesn't change the fact it reduced taxes, something Apdst is desperately attempting to avoid admitting.



    True, but that can be said of basically any spending, including debt financed tax cuts. The sad thing is without the lowered taxes and increased demand, we'd be in real pain and people like J-mac and Adpst would be calling for Obama to blow the bank.



    Eh. That's not really the big cost. Worry that your grandchildren will have to pay for $50 trillion in unfunded liabilities. The debt is minor comparatively. As I pointed out before, if Obama and Bush had spent exactly Zero dollars and increased the debt by Zero dollars, we'd still be boned.

    America's unfunded liabilities are far more scary then our debt. But I have never seen a partisan ever admit this.
    My arguement is less about spending money on stimulus versus how we spent it. If we had really done a good job of fixing our infrastructure I could have called it an investment. There is so much to fix, railroad tracks so trains can run faster, bridges, wireless, airports you get the point.

    Also I wouldnot minimize the additional $800 billion. To paraphrase a senator from a generation ago, a trillion here a trillion there before you know it adds up to real money!

    Again, the biggest item in the $50 trillion ( some people think it is closer to $100 trillion) is Medicare. Which again points to the failure of the HC bill to do what we needed it to do.

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Until that "green" energy is cheap enough to compete with the supposed "dirty" energy, it will flop, not create a lot of jobs, waste money or some combination of the three.
    The Bloom Box is currently being tested by eBay, Fedex, Wal-Mart, Staples, the San Francisco Airport, and the CIA.

    10 years from now, fossil fuels will be history.

  6. #196
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    If you believe that then you are truly misreading adpst.
    Hardly. Adpst just refuses to admit he's wrong. Like usual. He asked me to prove that the stimulus cut taxes. I cited that it was 36.6% tax cuts. To say it did not cut taxes is arguing that tax cuts don't cut taxes. Hence why he's dancing around trying to avoid he was wrong.

    No one can argue that tucked within the massive porkulus bill that tax breaks for certain behaviors were present. Just as you and other liberals desperately avoid calling them what they are in reality, credits, not cuts.
    Tell me, if my marginal effective rate I pay on my taxes drops this year from last year, do I pay less taxes? Let's see if you can answer this honestly. I'm betting not. If I pay 25% rather then 27% because of various tax items in the Stimulus bill, has my taxes gone down assuming the same AGI and structural type of income?

    Is that so? You liberals must have one reliable crystal ball that you use.
    It's called history. Something you should actually study.

    Heck, you can tell what would have happened had Obama taken a different path with the economy, now you can tell what myself and others would have posted?
    Sure. Look at IMF bailout countries. They cut spending to the bone. Did that work for them? You know, you COULD get your information from reputable sources for a change. Want to point to a country that went from severe recession to economic growth by cutting spending in a short period of time? Good luck with that.

    That's impressive. However, you are wrong. Trouble is, we are still going to feel the pain, only when it does hit, Obama policies will have magnified it.
    And I predict you will not be able to find a single country that I ask for. Does history support J-mac? No. Just like the fact that cops cannot threaten to rape and murder suspects' families during interrogations despite your argument otherwise.

    More like $110 Trillion, or $393K per citizen.
    Correction. $100 trillion.
    American Thinker: Is the US Government bankrupt?

    And you should ask yourself why that is?
    Decades of government mismanagement, expansion of entitlements and Americans' refusal to cut. I wasn't aware that Obama was in power for decades. Please show evidence of this.

    Is it less spending, less borrowing?
    Technically it's neither. The $100 trillion is a projected cost of entitlement spending over projected revenues. No actual spending or borrowing has occurred. Hence why they call it "unfunded liabilities." A liability is a future obligation. No actual monies have been spent for it or borrowed for it. Good job on financial fail there.

    Or is it that Obama has blown a hole in the debt, along with other repub, and liberal politicians that continue to tax, spend, and borrow us out of existence?
    See above. Your ignorance coupled with partisan hackery is causing a severe failure to understand the subject.

    It starts with misrepresenting the difference between a tax cut, and tax credit. Small piece I know, but all in all symptomatic of the larger problem of politicians lying to us.
    All that matters is effective marginal tax rates. I got plenty of clients that would see higher effective marginal taxes if statutory tax rates went down but key tax credits and deductions went away as well. Statutory tax rates don't tell you anything (well, if you have any idea of how taxes actually work, hint: not you).

    Then you are simply not paying attention. Either on purpose, or not.
    The irony on that post is hilarious. Someone who bashes Obama and blames him for the unfunded liabilities claims I'm not paying attention when those unfunded liabilities started well before Obama even got out of grade school. You remind me of the people who blamed Clinton for the savings and loan disaster. Never mind he wasn't in power.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You still haven't shown us who's taxes were cut. There certainly weren't across the board tax cuts.
    Still refusing to admit you are wrong eh?

    How about you read the stimulus bill code? Hint: it's not hard to know who's taxes were cut. Google "$400 tax credit" you know. Educate yourself.

    Tell me, how would jobs pick up with higher taxes and less demand? Or you can run away like you always do.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    My arguement is less about spending money on stimulus versus how we spent it.
    No question. But to deny that taxes decreased because of the stimulus bill is basically pretending that everyone who got the $400 credit didn't get the credit. Not completely out of character for some people here though.

    If we had really done a good job of fixing our infrastructure I could have called it an investment. There is so much to fix, railroad tracks so trains can run faster, bridges, wireless, airports you get the point.]
    True. but we should also realize that kenysian economics has never fixed a financial crisis. Neither has supply side. I keep making this challenge and partisan keep running away from showing me how supply side has fixed a historical financial recession. Kenysian/supply side can merely blunt the pain. They will not fix it. You cannot spend you way out of a financial crisis. Nor can you cut you way out of it either. You must address the cause of the financial recession and restore financial and lending markets. It is amazing just how few people here understand that.

    Again, the biggest item in the $50 trillion ( some people think it is closer to $100 trillion) is Medicare. Which again points to the failure of the HC bill to do what we needed it to do.
    True. The ugly fact is neither party will do what is necessary. The GOP attacked the healthcare bill by saying it would cut seniors' medicare. They were defending it. We're going to have to get to the point where Medicare is 80% of our budget before a party does what is necessary.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Still refusing to admit you are wrong eh?

    How about you read the stimulus bill code? Hint: it's not hard to know who's taxes were cut. Google "$400 tax credit" you know. Educate yourself.

    Tell me, how would jobs pick up with higher taxes and less demand? Or you can run away like you always do.
    Again, please, tell us exactly who's taxes were cut. Since you're so much smarter and more knowledgable than the rest of us, it should be a piece of cake to show us that information
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    No question. But to deny that taxes decreased because of the stimulus bill is basically pretending that everyone who got the $400 credit didn't get the credit. Not completely out of character for some people here though.



    True. but we should also realize that kenysian economics has never fixed a financial crisis. Neither has supply side. I keep making this challenge and partisan keep running away from showing me how supply side has fixed a historical financial recession. Kenysian/supply side can merely blunt the pain. They will not fix it. You cannot spend you way out of a financial crisis. Nor can you cut you way out of it either. You must address the cause of the financial recession and restore financial and lending markets. It is amazing just how few people here understand that.



    True. The ugly fact is neither party will do what is necessary. The GOP attacked the healthcare bill by saying it would cut seniors' medicare. They were defending it. We're going to have to get to the point where Medicare is 80% of our budget before a party does what is necessary.
    Pt #1- never said there were no tax cuts.

    Pt #2- I agree that in this type of recession throwing money was not the fix. However if you want to put some people to work during this period which is what the stimulus did then I would have preferred to have them do something that would have long term benefits to our economy.

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