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Thread: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

  1. #161
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    a good read on green energy...
    Five myths about green energy
    I have a number of problems with this article.

    To start with,

    Unfortunately, solar and wind technologies require huge amounts of land to deliver relatively small amounts of energy, disrupting natural habitats. Even an aging natural gas well producing 60,000 cubic feet per day generates more than 20 times the watts per square meter of a wind turbine.

    I found this comparrison odd more than anything. It's comparing different things, other things have to happen to gas to make it into electricity, is this including the land the power plant it on, or the gas pipeline?

    Also, new wind farms are using much larger turbines than older projects, a wind farm constructed today could produce 3 or 4 times more 'watts per square meter' than one construted 10 years ago. In the UK they are building over 30 GW of wind capacity offshore, where there is plenty of space, the US has some big coastlines too if it really needs space.


    Nor does wind energy substantially reduce CO2 emissions. Since the wind doesn't always blow, utilities must use gas- or coal-fired generators to offset wind's unreliability. The result is minimal -- or no -- carbon dioxide reduction.


    Evidence??? Most CCGT's can be tunred on or off in 30 minutes, allowing them to make up for periods when wind turbines are not operating.

    Denmark, the poster child for wind energy boosters, more than doubled its production of wind energy between 1999 and 2007. Yet data from Energinet.dk, the operator of Denmark's natural gas and electricity grids, show that carbon dioxide emissions from electricity generation in 2007 were at about the same level as they were back in 1990, before the country began its frenzied construction of turbines.

    If you look at the graph in the mentioned report, it clearly shows CO2 emmisions rising after 1990, and then falling from about 1997 to 2000. Page 27 states:

    CO2 emissions vary considerably from year to year, depending on electricity trading.
    Adjusting for imports and exports resulte in an overall emissions reduction of 23% in the 1990-2007 period. The primary reason is a conversion of Danish electricity and heat generation to less CO2 intensive fuels such as natural gas, coupled with increased use of renewable energy sources.


    The article then states:

    And through 2017, the Danes foresee no decrease in carbon dioxide emissions from electricity generation.


    This is probably because Denmark has no plans to increase its wind generation capacity.
    We all live under the same sky, but we don't all have the same horizon

  2. #162
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    So what are you specifically arguing for. Should we tear down the protective tariffs and remove the subsidies? If so, then we well see ethanol prices decrease and ethanol consumption increase here in the states. Ethanol is currently a viable alternative to gasoline.

    If you think we should subsidize US industry to continue to expand, and grow the US ethanol industry, and to promote energy independence then ethanol subsidies and a tariff on ethanol imports are the policy to go with.

    If you remove the tariff and continue the subsidy you will subsidize Brazil, if you remove the subsidy and continue the tariff you will decrease our ethanol production, and increase our foreign oil consumption.

    What sounds best to you?

    Easy! DRILL!!!!! our own oil, while at the same time developing things like natural gas and other alternatives that don't rely on using the food source to produce energy.


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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    No, in fact I am in favor of removing ethanol from gasoline supplies. It costs too much for the little it does. I don't want tariffs, or subsidies, I want my gasoline to be ALL gasoline....
    AND, I want speed limits on highways reduced to 65 mph for cars, 60 for trucks....
    I know for a fact that driving slower uses a lot less gasoline. My 2000 Impala gets 37mpg at 65mph, 33mpg at 75mph hiway miles.
    That is better than 10% improvement...
    What do you think car makers would have to do to make the same car get 10% better mileage at 75mph?
    We could reduce speed limits regarless of what fues we use.

    Also, pure gasoline does not fully combust in the engine. Its why we adopted oyginated fuel for cars, to reduce CO emmissions. Ethanol is an octane booster. We can make engines with higher compression ratios if we use oyginated gas, which in turn means more horsepower and torque for your car, and cleaner emmissions.
    Last edited by drz-400; 08-30-10 at 10:10 PM.

  4. #164
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Yeah??? Give me a list of ethanol plants that get their water from a river. How much does treating water add to the cost of ethanol??

    Do you actually believe corn growers water their corn ???

    The actual amount of water to produce ethanol in the manufacturing process is over 4 gallons of water for every gallon of fuel.

    Dozens of communities that have rejected ethanol plants because they are concerned their water supply would be damaged. Here's one of many:


    Ethanol plants' water usage raises some concerns - USATODAY.com
    A list, I would if I knew where to find it. Pretreating the water obviously costs more, as in any industrial setting, so that is probobly why more plants opt to pump their water, but it is not necessary. This is a complaint of literally any industrial water supply though.

    I actually do believe farmers water their corn. Actually I know it, I've done it myself.

    I am sure plenty of communities have rejected ethanol plants for concerns of their water resources, and I have no problems with that.
    Last edited by drz-400; 08-30-10 at 10:54 PM.

  5. #165
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Easy! DRILL!!!!! our own oil, while at the same time developing things like natural gas and other alternatives that don't rely on using the food source to produce energy.


    j-mac
    So, you want to get rid of the tariffs and subsidies?

  6. #166
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    We could reduce speed limits regarless of what fues we use.

    Also, pure gasoline does not fully combust in the engine. Its why we adopted oyginated fuel for cars, to reduce CO emmissions. Ethanol is an octane booster. We can make engines with higher compression ratios if we use oyginated gas, which in turn means more horsepower and torque for your car, and cleaner emmissions.
    yeah, you are right, I was only thinking about the emissions improvements. OK, I will let them put in 10% ethanol , and not a molecule more...
    Oracle of Utah
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    A list, I would if I knew where to find it. Pretreating the water obviously costs more, as in any industrial setting, so that is probobly why more plants opt to pump their water, but it is not necessary. This is a complaint of literally any industrial water supply though.

    I actually do believe farmers water their corn. Actually I know it, I've done it myself.

    I am sure plenty of communities have rejected ethanol plants for concerns of their water resources, and I have no problems with that.
    Maybe a few farmers water corn in extremely arid areas, but they only produce a very limited amount of corn. We're not talking about a backyard garden here.

    Drive through Illinois and Iowa where most of the country's corn is grown and you won't see a single corn field that is irrigated.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





  8. #168
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Maybe a few farmers water corn in extremely arid areas, but they only produce a very limited amount of corn. We're not talking about a backyard garden here.

    Drive through Illinois and Iowa where most of the country's corn is grown and you won't see a single corn field that is irrigated.
    Is corn the only crop grown in the area? Do the other crops need water?
    Oracle of Utah
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Is corn the only crop grown in the area? Do the other crops need water?
    When I lived in Iowa, my house was surrounded by fields and I drove past hundreds more each week. All of the farmers there alternated between corn and soybeans. One year corn, the next soybeans, then corn again. None of the fields were irrigated since it would be almost impossible to do. It's the same in Illinois.

    If you fly over Iowa in a small plane, you can see corn or soybean fields growing as far as the eye can see.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





  10. #170
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    We could reduce speed limits regarless of what fues we use.
    Oh wow man....flashback....I could have swore I just heard Jimmah Carter telling me to put on a sweater....

    So, you want to get rid of the tariffs and subsidies?
    Sure to some extent. but why does it have to be either one extreme or another with you liberals?


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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