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Thread: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    That is because these sources are unreliable...And will be far longer than it would take to develop current, known sources like Coal, and Oil.


    j-mac
    So shoulden't we pump research into a technology that is farther ahead and let our current known sources of coal and oil passively develop? I'm not against clean energy, I'm just more concerned about renewable. I don't think our world is gonna die out anytime soon due to CO2 emissions. But the sooner we get off unrenewable sources the better.
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by LimeLight View Post
    So shoulden't we pump research into a technology that is farther ahead and let our current known sources of coal and oil passively develop?
    That's just the problem, I think we agree, being 'all the above' types. But, what is clearly going on now is an attack of sorts hitting the current energy developers, and the attack through regulation, and moratorium, meanwhile, there is nothing that is alternative, so the future is ungodly high prices.


    I'm not against clean energy, I'm just more concerned about renewable. I don't think our world is gonna die out anytime soon due to CO2 emissions. But the sooner we get off unrenewable sources the better.
    I don't think we know nearly enough to say that a source is renewable or not. Sure we have a lot of propaganda out there driven in one direction or another due to political bents, and "feelings" but things like Natural gas, as Bill has outlined may or may not be renewable, and for that matter we have an over abundance of it to begin with.

    So hey, you want to live in a world where your roof is made of mirrors, and on cloudy days you don't have any electric power? Go right ahead....I'll stick with the known's for now.


    j-mac
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  3. #153
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Brazil has an advantage, more raw land, better climate, much more water, etc. for sugar cane production. So it is cheaper, even adding transportation to the costs. Doesn't mean we should be buying it. We could probably save more more gasoline by reducing speed limits than by importing ethanol from Brazil to dilute the gasoline we have.


    We need to deal with our energy needs without too much involvement from foreign countries.
    The primary need is oil, electricity is not in short supply and we can easily build more power plants.

    OIL is the primary issue...
    So, according to you we should have protective tariffs (such as one on ethanol) to establish domestic energy production. Then why on earth are you against subsidizing domestic ethanol production? It would reduce our need for foreign oil w/out increasing the price of oil. It gives the market place more alternatives, and it is somewhat more environmentally friendly than its petro counterparts.

  4. #154
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    So, according to you we should have protective tariffs (such as one on ethanol) to establish domestic energy production. Then why on earth are you against subsidizing domestic ethanol production? It would reduce our need for foreign oil w/out increasing the price of oil. It gives the market place more alternatives, and it is somewhat more environmentally friendly than its petro counterparts.

    From 2001, still makes sense today:

    In June, the Bush administration reported to Congress that the federal ethanol incentive program has done precisely the opposite of what was intended. Instead of reducing gasoline consumption, foreign oil dependency, and air pollution, the program caused Americans to use 473 million more gallons of gasoline in 2000 than in 1999. In fact, if this program remains in place, it actually will increase gasoline use by 9 billion gallons from 2005 to 2008.
    Virtually every independent assessment of ethanol has shown that it's unjustified by either science or economics. The official effort to push ethanol has failed to live up to any of its stated goals. So in the face of this manifest boondoggle, what's the administration recommending? Continue the program and possibly even expand it.

    Running on Empty: The Failure of Ethanol [Mackinac Center]

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  5. #155
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Ethanol is still just an additive that costs too much for the little it does.....
    If it wasn't for govt subsidies, a lot of similar scams would have never gotten started.
    What does it do? It lowers the energy content of a gallon of gasoline.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I don't give a crap about "fossil fuels" per se. I do give a crap about energy. And as it is, it's a physical and economic fact that oil is cheap, it's easily transportable, and it's highly energy-intensive.

    Find something which beats it in those categories, and then you'll have something, and the world will happily convert. But wishes and good intentions aren't energy sources.
    You have think positive thoughts to get the energy. You're just all full of negative vibes, man.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  7. #157
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    From 2001, still makes sense today:




    j-mac
    So what are you specifically arguing for. Should we tear down the protective tariffs and remove the subsidies? If so, then we well see ethanol prices decrease and ethanol consumption increase here in the states. Ethanol is currently a viable alternative to gasoline.

    If you think we should subsidize US industry to continue to expand, and grow the US ethanol industry, and to promote energy independence then ethanol subsidies and a tariff on ethanol imports are the policy to go with.

    If you remove the tariff and continue the subsidy you will subsidize Brazil, if you remove the subsidy and continue the tariff you will decrease our ethanol production, and increase our foreign oil consumption.

    What sounds best to you?
    Last edited by drz-400; 08-30-10 at 02:49 PM.

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Ethanol refining is an industrial process, it does not need potable water. They can treat water used in ethanol plants to the level that it needs to be in order to be used. They could use groundwater, surface water, waste water from municipal plants, or even re-use the water they already use. The average for the gallons of water used to refine a gallon of gasoline is 1.53. Ethanol is 3 gallons to one gallon of ethanol in the refining process. So it takes about 2 times as much. What it pales in comparison to is the amount of water it takes to crow corn, not the refining process.
    Yeah??? Give me a list of ethanol plants that get their water from a river. How much does treating water add to the cost of ethanol??

    Do you actually believe corn growers water their corn ???

    The actual amount of water to produce ethanol in the manufacturing process is over 4 gallons of water for every gallon of fuel.

    Dozens of communities that have rejected ethanol plants because they are concerned their water supply would be damaged. Here's one of many:

    Enlarge By Paul Snyder, The Daily Reporter via AP
    An ethanol plant in Stanley, Wis. Illinois officials are worried about the amount of water needed to run ethanol plants.

    By Jim Paul, Associated Press
    CHAMPAIGN, Ill. — City officials in Champaign and Urbana took notice when they heard that an ethanol plant proposed nearby would use about two million gallons of water per day, most likely from the aquifer that also supplies both cities.

    "There was concern about impacting a pretty valuable resource," said Matt Wempe, a city planner for Urbana. "It should raise red flags."

    The proposal for a 100 million-gallon-per-year ethanol plant is just one of many that have popped up in the past several months across Illinois, which already has seven operating plants and is the nation's No. 2 ethanol producer after Iowa.
    Ethanol plants' water usage raises some concerns - USATODAY.com
    Last edited by Gill; 08-30-10 at 03:01 PM.

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  9. #159
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    a good read on green energy...
    Five myths about green energy
    Oracle of Utah
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  10. #160
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    So, according to you we should have protective tariffs (such as one on ethanol) to establish domestic energy production. Then why on earth are you against subsidizing domestic ethanol production? It would reduce our need for foreign oil w/out increasing the price of oil. It gives the market place more alternatives, and it is somewhat more environmentally friendly than its petro counterparts.
    No, in fact I am in favor of removing ethanol from gasoline supplies. It costs too much for the little it does. I don't want tariffs, or subsidies, I want my gasoline to be ALL gasoline....
    AND, I want speed limits on highways reduced to 65 mph for cars, 60 for trucks....
    I know for a fact that driving slower uses a lot less gasoline. My 2000 Impala gets 37mpg at 65mph, 33mpg at 75mph hiway miles.
    That is better than 10% improvement...
    What do you think car makers would have to do to make the same car get 10% better mileage at 75mph?
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