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Thread: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

  1. #101
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    So you're trying to argue that there's only one shade of red?
    No, only one definition of nationalized. You define words as you jolly well feel like, unilaterally changing definitions to suit your arguments as you so please without any regard for their actual definition. I actually stick to their real definitions. Not imaginary definitions I make up on the spot.

    That it?
    Sorry. I don't change definitions whenever I feel like to suit my ideological bias. You do.

    He has the personal authority to control who drills where and who looks where for what.
    So? That's not nationalized. By your argument, every industry is nationalized since government controls access and permits.

    Since the Left's goal in nationalizing the American oil industry is nothing more or less than the closing of it, the President's exercise of power to increasing restrict drilling sites is all they need or want to do at this time.
    Yawn. More ideological vomit without basis in reality.

    No, it's a bogus car because it's technology was obsolete the day the stupid thing was revealed on the market. Outside of the rubber wheels and motor-thingy, it's no different in concept than the million candle-power spot light I have plugged into the wall for later use when I want to signal the crew on the space station or blind airline pilots, even though what I really use it for is to signal other boats that my sail boat is HERE, just in case they don't see all the other lights in the rigging.
    Obsolete = Bogus? There you go again. Defining words however you feel like with no regard for their actual definition. Stick to their actual definitions or put a disclaimer that you aren't using English.

    But, it's got a battery, it's got a charger, it turns AC into DC, it runs down, and one of these days I'll have to replace the whole spotlight because it won't be economical to replace the battery.
    So all batteries and battery systems are identical?

    Yes.

    Learn economics someday. Money doesn't grow on trees. It has to be stolen from someone else first before one useless company can be subsidized over another.
    You seem to subscribe to the notion of finite wealth that can never grow. And you say I need to learn economics. One must wonder how you think that the size of the pie can never increase.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  2. #102
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Barbbtx made no mention of PRICE.
    So? price is important. Especially in the context of security and our enemies.

    If we have to pay more to stop getting oil from our enemies, it will be worth the price.
    But in the process we'll just be making them richer in the process. That makes no sense. The only way we can avoid this is by nationalization, by isolating our market for oil from the world's and thereby limiting the impact of price rises upon the cash flow to our enemies. Without understanding how commodity markets work, any talk about more drilling in the context of security fails.

    And Nuclear in the USA is not subsidized, no more than is coal or gas.
    But coal and gas are subsidized. As is the nuclear industry. Nuclear gets subsidized per kilowatt hour.

    Loan guarantees are not loans. Even if the billions were direct loans from the govt, they have to be paid back....
    That's still subsidization.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  3. #103
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Your last statement, I agree with 100%.
    The rest of your post....read the following...
    Energy Report - Government Financial Subsidies
    Uh, he's right about renewables if we exclude ethanol. As for refined coal, it's hard to say from the report. Even your link shows nuclear as #3 behind coal + Gas and coal.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  4. #104
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Slainte View Post
    Also, I do not believe anyone has stated the exact number of jobs that will be created, 'over 800,000 is just an estimate. I do not think it's that unreasonable.
    I agree about the 800,000 maybe plausible considering 2012 is approx. 16 months away and boils down to 50,000 jobs a month. On the other hand we need generate approx. 150,000+ jobs a month to make any positives changes in the unemployment.
    Last edited by Redbeard; 08-21-10 at 08:09 PM.

  5. #105
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    So? price is important. Especially in the context of security and our enemies.



    But in the process we'll just be making them richer in the process. That makes no sense. The only way we can avoid this is by nationalization, by isolating our market for oil from the world's and thereby limiting the impact of price rises upon the cash flow to our enemies. Without understanding how commodity markets work, any talk about more drilling in the context of security fails.



    But coal and gas are subsidized. As is the nuclear industry. Nuclear gets subsidized per kilowatt hour.



    That's still subsidization.
    If we are goint to subsidize clean energy, nuclear deserves more subsidies than coal. 2 power plants of equal output, if the nuke is producing 23 tons of "waste", the coal plant is producing 300,000 tons of ash, plus mercury, SO2, NO, etc. plus a lot more radioactive crap than the average nuke plant.
    Nuke "wastes" can be reprocessed into more fuel. Coal wastes can not be reprocessed, has little use, gets buried, messes up water supplies, and breaks thru retaining walls severely polluting rivers....

    There are a few dozen old design coal plants being built right now, with pollution levels equivalent to 22 million cars. Didn't we just buy a bunch of clunkers to boost the economy and help clean the air? Why do we subsidize old and dirty technology?
    Last edited by UtahBill; 08-21-10 at 08:32 PM.
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  6. #106
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Good point, so the question to answer is:

    Can renewable energies make money for individuals?

    Lets look at ethanol for example. For that I will refer to the paper Goldenboy219 cited. Ethanol produced in Brazil is cost competitive with oil. Brazil has comparative advantage when producing ethanol. So, to continue the growth of the US ethanol industry we have created a system that subsidizes ethanol ($.51) and places a tariff on ethanol to prevent this subsidy from leaving the country and to protect US industry. Without the subsidy or tariff, ethanol would still be cost competitive only it would be made in Brazil.
    Ethanol may not be a good example. But let's put that aside for a second. Apply the same functionality to wind, solar and geothermal. All three of those alternative energy solutions require actual power source to be created but rather, a device to harness the power source that already exists around us. Until the market shows that putting up wind turbines or solar panels can pay itself off in a shorter amount of time and with less initial cost as compared to fossile fuels - no amount of subsidy's will create a demand. The only way to do it is to artifically raise fossile fuel costs such that alternatives are more cost effective.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #107
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Your last statement, I agree with 100%.
    The rest of your post....read the following...
    Energy Report - Government Financial Subsidies
    I think incorrect to look at total energy subsidies when nuclear energy is only used for electricity. Why should oil, gas, and ethanol even be related to nuclear power when they are used mainly for transportation. Also, I would like to point out that the bulk of coal subsidies are for refined coal, which is a clean energy product.

  8. #108
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Ethanol may not be a good example. But let's put that aside for a second. Apply the same functionality to wind, solar and geothermal. All three of those alternative energy solutions require actual power source to be created but rather, a device to harness the power source that already exists around us. Until the market shows that putting up wind turbines or solar panels can pay itself off in a shorter amount of time and with less initial cost as compared to fossile fuels - no amount of subsidy's will create a demand. The only way to do it is to artifically raise fossile fuel costs such that alternatives are more cost effective.
    I somewhat agree with you on wind, solar, (and I'll throw in clean coal) as they are very dependent upon subsidies to produce electricity. However, that does not mean they are not profitable with a subsidy included. I would argue the opposite. Come visit eastern CO and you'll see what I mean. I think you should also recognize that the cost of burning fossil fuels (coal specifically for electricity) is much higher than what the price is on the market because of the pollution it creates. There are good reasons for taxes on pollution, because they allow the market to take such costs into account. It makes the market more efficient.

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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    If we are goint to subsidize clean energy, nuclear deserves more subsidies than coal. 2 power plants of equal output, if the nuke is producing 23 tons of "waste", the coal plant is producing 300,000 tons of ash, plus mercury, SO2, NO, etc. plus a lot more radioactive crap than the average nuke plant.
    Nuke "wastes" can be reprocessed into more fuel. Coal wastes can not be reprocessed, has little use, gets buried, messes up water supplies, and breaks thru retaining walls severely polluting rivers....

    There are a few dozen old design coal plants being built right now, with pollution levels equivalent to 22 million cars. Didn't we just buy a bunch of clunkers to boost the economy and help clean the air? Why do we subsidize old and dirty technology?
    We subsidize the older technology very little, something like $.44 megawatt hour. Although I do agree we should continue to move away from that. One thing I think that holds back large scale nuclear energy development is although the waste relatively speaking is less, there is NO good way to get rid of it. Most power plants are just storing their own nuclear waste.

  10. #110
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    Re: Obama Says Commitment to Clean Energy Will Boost Jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    I think incorrect to look at total energy subsidies when nuclear energy is only used for electricity. Why should oil, gas, and ethanol even be related to nuclear power when they are used mainly for transportation. Also, I would like to point out that the bulk of coal subsidies are for refined coal, which is a clean energy product.
    We are almost agreeing....refined coal may be cleaner, but it is not clean. IF I dust half my coffee table, it is cleaner, but it is not clean. I might try to say it is, but the boss lady disagrees. And I cringe when I hear a politician say we can import less oil from the Middle East if we just produce more electricity. Even one of the AZ Corporation Commisson members said that in his campaign, and he WON !!!

    Apples and Oranges, people, apples and oranges...
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