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President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

Agent Ferris said:
lmfao you can't be serious can you? There was no such thing as equal rights under the Ottoman Empire, women were relegated to 2nd class citizen status; whereas, Christians and Jews were relegated to third class status as dhimmi. And you were basically ****ed if you were a pagan.
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the Empire had its own system, and you got my point,albeit by chance, Altough the empire jad its own syytem, There were rights for non-muslims such as owning christian courts or schools etc.,and there were no daily insults against non-muslims as in today's america; on the other hand, they had some privileges ,for example, non-muslims had no obligation for military service...i repeat The ottoman empire had its own system and lived for 600 years, which shows us the empire had more tolerance for non-muslims than today's America.



Agent Ferris said:
Because they accepted their dhimmitude. That doesn't mean that they had anything that resembled equal rights. Even after the Tanzimat reformations of the Ottoman Empire there was still de jure if not de facto discrimination against and exploitation of non-Muslims.
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don't be so dramatic, the empire ,as you wrote,changed its some rules later, after all, we are talking about an empire 100 years ago ...Muslims in USA have to obey the rules of USA, if they want to live in USA, right?
 
Laila said:
Yeah, let me just that cut short by just stating. I feel no shame over anything anyone does if I had no role.
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Thank you Laila. Perfect example. I rest my case.
 
MrVicchio said:
Maybe the big problem is, the West has a history of protesting actions done that they don't agree with.
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The West also has a history of freedoms and political liberty :shrug:

I don't consider silence as supporting. I consider helping extremists supporting.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Why should they have to denounce acts that they :
  • Do not approve of
  • Have not spoken in support of
  • Believe no reasonable person would approve of
  • Have no involvement in
  • Have provided no material support for
. . . just to make the rest of us happy?

Why do we not simply assume that they disapprove of it, unless their words or actions explicitly contradict this assumption?

Hell, if that's the route we're going, I believe Captain America has not done enough to properly denounce murder -- not the crime, but individual murders. He should be ashamed of his lack of repugnation, perhaps even his silent approvals, over that crime. He should stand up on the street and publicly denounce each and every murder which occurs all across this great land.
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C'mon Dan. You can do better than that.
 
The Prof said:
if they want to improve relations it's a good start
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Well I believe it should be the other way around, those who wish to build the Mosque should put forth the effort to improve relations with us and convince us that they mean no harm or insult. Non the less constitutionaly speaking they have every right to put a Mosque where ever they wish as long as it meets code. That said, what ever is built next door to this Mosque, should not be opposed as long as it meets zoning codes.
 
MrVicchio said:
We consider silence to be silently accepting/agreeing.
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That might be true but it is still idiotic. One wonders what it would take to convince you that most Muslims aren't extremists and don't tacitly support extremism. I don't see Christians coming out in droves to condemn the people who bomb abortion clinics, I guess that means all Christians support terrorist, too, huh? :roll:
 
Captain America said:
C'mon Dan. You can do better than that.
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I don't have to. By your standard, any bad thing that happens that we don't denounce is something we implicitly approve of.

You're convicting peaceful, law-abiding Muslims of being collaborators / supporters / fans of militants without any proof whatsoever.

By that same standard, you carry a torch for murderers.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
What a bunch of bull****. You don't improve relations by doing whatever it takes to make someone else happy, you do it through interaction, putting your case out there and giving people a chance to respond to it.
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the way mr rauf and mr obama "do it" is by openly provoking and pissing off their peers

in the case of the latter, he then asks you to pee in a cup

that's what diplomacy is all about
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good, but it's not working

diplomacy with iran isn't either

the prez stinks at improving relations

ask the show me's, as characteristic a cross section as any in the country

their expression is unambiguous, unmistakable, 3 to 1

Prop C passes overwhelmingly

despite the largeness of those lobes our leader plainly lacks the ability to listen

but, then, as always, he knows best
 
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The Prof said:
the way mr rauf and mr obama "do it" is by openly provoking and pissing off their neighbors
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You're holding Rauf responsible for the fact that his neighbors are ignoramuses. That's not his problem.

If he keeps putting himself out there and being reasonable and creating environments and opportunities for interaction with the public, then he's doing what he should be doing.

As for the President, I don't give a damn about him.
 
Guy Incognito said:
That might be true but it is still idiotic. One wonders what it would take to convince you that most Muslims aren't extremists and don't tacitly support extremism. I don't see Christians coming out in droves to condemn the people who bomb abortion clinics, I guess that means all Christians support terrorist, too, huh? :roll:
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No, see you're WRONG many do, and we do so by supporting laws to stop such, by publicly condemning such actions.

It may not be fair, and I was merely remarking on cultural differences? Yes, not making a statement that all Muslims that don't get out in the streets supports terrorism.

BTW It wouldn't take much, I figure most Muslims that live in the West and have been exposed to Personal Liberty move beyond such notions. But what will it take for you to acknowledge that many DO support Terrorist.

Last week, Ford Motor Company finally won a suit by a former employee, Arab Muslim Saleem Shariff, who cheered the 9/11 attacks and high-fived fellow Arab Muslim employees on the day of the attacks. Three others–Khalid Ali Alward, Abdul Mohamed, and Saleh Mohamed Omar–also Arab Muslims, participated and did the same thing: they cheered and high-fived the 9/11 attacks. And they all sued when they were not hired for permanent employment, but only Shariff appealed after losing at the trial court level. The Michigan Court of Appeals, in an unpublished decision (which I obtained and you can read here), decided in Ford’s favor.
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Ford Motor Company Kept Workers Who Praised 9/11 Employed for 3 Years | Debbie Schlussel

September 13, 2001 by Lee Green

CAMERA ALERT: PA Blocks Coverage of Palestinians Cheering 9/11 Attacks

According to the AP, Israel Radio and the Jerusalem Post, the Palestinians threatened news organizations and their workers in an effort to stop the broadcast of video, and the publishing of photographs, showing large crowds of Palestinians in Nablus and Ramallah joyfully celebrating the deadly 9/11 terrorist attacks against Americans. Presumably they understood that such video and photos would be repugnant to Americans — and millions of others around the world — and might damage their image.

Photographers and stringers (mostly Palestinians themselves) were forced by Palestinian gunmen to stop filming the celebrations (see Agence France Press report), and they were threatened with death if their video was broadcast. The news organizations they work for were told that everyone from their news organization would lose their access to PA officials and be unable to cover events in PA territory if they broadcast any video or photos of the large celebrations.

An AP photographer was specifically threatened with death if his photos were published. AP has published a report about the threat, but has caved in to the PA's request not to publish these photos.

Thus far, only videos and photos of small crowds celebrating in eastern Jerusalem and Lebanon have been broadcast/published. It appears the Palestinian intimidation tactics are working to keep the most damning scenes from Ramallah and Nablus off American (and worldwide) television screens and out of the newspapers.
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CAMERA: CAMERA ALERT: PA Blocks Coverage of Palestinians Cheering 9/11 Attacks

 
Captain America said:
Thank you Laila. Perfect example. I rest my case.
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I'll give you more examples:

I don't expect Catholics to feel shame when a priest rapes a child.

I don't expect you to feel shame when another man rapes a woman.

I don't expect Germans to feel shame for what happened in WWII.

I don't expect Irish Catholics to feel guilty about the actions of the IRA.

I don't expect Italians to feel guilty for the actions of the Red Brigades or the Mafia.

I don't expect all Basques to feel guilty for the actions of ETA.

And I certainly don't expect Muslims to feel either guilt or shame for 9/11 or ANY other Islamic terrorist attack.

Why in the bloody hell would you expect innocent people to mentally associate themselves with criminals in this manner? Are you a sadist of some sort??
 
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DiAnna said:
You are aware, are you not, that the property was purchased and the project was being planned long before 9/11/2001. They could not possibly know that several blocks away that a future tragedy would happen.
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Please elaborate. The information I have is that it was owned by Con-Ed a utility co. and sold to a Sharif El-Gamal in 2006 long after the attack on 9/11
 
Jetboogieman said:
I believe what he's doing is this:

Coming out in support of the 1st Amendment.

If you have a problem with it. Change it. But he's kinda upholding the constitution in this case...

You know that thing you accuse him of destroying...
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Those who brought down the twin towers had also disgraced Islam, Obama said, reminding Americans "to always remember who we are fighting against, and what we are fighting for. Our enemies respect no freedom of religion" that the Founding Fathers enshrined.
 
No, because the KKK isn't a religion.

SgtRock said:
Obama should stay out of this. If the KKK announced plans to build a shrine at the site of the 16th Street Baptist Church, would Obama be talking about religious freedom? I agree that they have a right to build this mosque but I also believe they have an agenda and it has nothing to do with tolerance and understanding.
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SgtRock said:
I have no intention to relax. I have been contemplating my anger and hatred for Islam lately. I understand that my opinion of Islam is not popular. But I believe I am right and my hatred is justified. I will fight the Islamification of my country till my last breath.
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And therefore you are no different, and certainly no better, than them.
 
Laila said:
I don't consider silence as supporting. I consider helping extremists supporting.
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whether you agree with or even understand their reasons, the overwhelming majority of your neighbors, ie, equals, the very folks the imam and his pal in the white house are trying to "relate" to, including 50% of ny dems, see things differently

how can you improve relations with anyone without first understanding him or her?

and obama isn't being silent, here, is he?

he was, for weeks

gibbs kept saying it was an issue for new yorkers

that changed yesterday

here we go!
 
MCS117 said:
And so do most of the opponents to the building of that Mosque. It's not the matter of if they can build it or not. It's the matter of why they are building that mosque in that location. I am for them building mosques, but that location is creating tension. It's like burning the American flag. It's legal, but many Americans(I hope a majority....) does not like people that do that in front of their faces or stomp of the American flag. It's a sign of disrespect to the people there. And this mosque is showing that despite a majority of people do not want it at that location, "we are gonna do it anyway because we can" kind of attitude. How you like it when a guy walks up front of you, spits on an American flag, stomps on it, then lights it up. But then again.... They can do it, but people might not like it.
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Kudos. Very well said....


.
 
Agent Ferris said:
The guy responsible for this monstrosity wants a Sharia compliant U.S.. Yes.
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One of the goals of Christianity (for example) is to "convert" the entire world to their religion. So should we be suspicious of all Christians? Will they eventually wipe out all the non-believers so Jesus will finally come back to earth? I'm not worried. Nor am I worried that all Muslims will rise up and kill us all. There are both good and terrible people in all religions. I am not one to let the extremists speak for the rest of their religion.

Religious beliefs are shoved into politics all the time... but if you truly believe that America will EVER condone the death penalty for adultery, lashing someone for having sex out of wedlock, or cutting someone's hands off for stealing... as The Prof feels he needs to shove into this discussion... you should take a drug test.:roll:

Agent Ferris said:
Prove it. That's just an out and out lie, the Cordoba Mosque wasn't announced until 2009.
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Yeah I can't find anything about the Mosque being planned in the 1990s. I'll hold my judgment until DiAnna can back up (or not back up) the claim.
 
MrVicchio said:
No, see you're WRONG many do, and we do so by supporting laws to stop such, by publicly condemning such actions.
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So when is this ephemeral idea of "public condemnation" sufficient, in your view? Do you deny that the vast majority of Muslims publicly condemn terrorism?

MrVicchio said:
It may not be fair, and I was merely remarking on cultural differences? Yes, not making a statement that all Muslims that don't get out in the streets supports terrorism.
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So by your own admission what you are really doing is using overly-broad language to unfairly attribute criminal actions to Islamic culture generally, while acknowledging that support for terrorism is only supported by a fraction of Muslims. I've never heard such asinine dithering, at least commit yourself to a position. Are you so ashamed of your own beliefs that you have to make such absurd rationalizations? Maybe you should reevaluate them, then.

MrVicchio said:
BTW It wouldn't take much, I figure most Muslims that live in the West and have been exposed to Personal Liberty move beyond such notions.
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If it truly "doesn't take much" then the threshold has already been more than met. But what you really mean is that it doesn't take much when it's Christians muttering condemnations of abortion clinic bombers, while you demand some sort of vast public protest by Muslims against crimes for which they are entirely innocent. You obviously have a double standard for Christians and Muslims, and I submit that no amount of condemnation of terrorism by Muslims (and there is plenty of it) will ever be enough for your kind.

MrVicchio said:
But what will it take for you to acknowledge that many DO support Terrorist.
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Certainly, I don't know of anyone who denies the fact that certain people who claim to be Muslims engage in terrorism. Just as certain people who claim to be Christian commit acts of terrorism.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
You're holding Rauf responsible for the fact that his neighbors are ignoramuses. That's not his problem.
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if he really wants to improve relations with the neanderthals, it absolutely is

diplomacy, remember?

who ever guaranteed that everyone you must deal with in your affairs is as enlightened as yourself?

i'm not really holding anyone responsible for anything, but the electorate will, they'll hold lots of people accountable (80 days, baby!)

all i'm doing is observing and commenting very sincerely

this issue is gonna kill this president, it's another 70%'er for the krauthammer kids

he's a klutz, comprehensively clueless and incompetent

If he keeps putting himself out there and being reasonable and creating environments and opportunities for interaction with the public, then he's doing what he should be doing.
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but it aint working

maybe on paper, maybe in the abstract, maybe in harvard textbooks

but NOT in new york

ideals are pretty, but reality is rubber on road

As for the President, I don't give a damn about him.
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i completely understand
 
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SgtRock said:
I have no intention to relax. I have been contemplating my anger and hatred for Islam lately. I understand that my opinion of Islam is not popular. But I believe I am right and my hatred is justified. I will fight the Islamification of my country till my last breath.
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I once knew a man like you. Unfortunately, he climbed up the political ranks and achieved a great deal of power. Then he murdered 6 million Jews.
 
Obama did a moral thing; put the values of the constitution and the founding father first, for once, and upheld America's title as the land of the free and brave.
 
The Prof said:
if he really wants to improve relations with the neanderthals, it absolutely is

diplomacy, remember?
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The problem is that he's not just aiming for diplomacy, but also for being an agent of social change. He sees so many people filled with hate and fear towards Islam, so he wants to change that. Then people react fearfully and hatefully with respect to his chosen location.

When social change is your priority, and simply going about your business stirs up the haters, you're pretty much obligated to keep doing it.

In other words, the problem here isn't that he isn't being diplomatic, it's that he's got a bigger priority than diplomacy.

The Prof said:
who ever guaranteed that everyone you must deal with in your affairs is as enlightened as yourself?
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I never said anybody did. I said the idiocy of others isn't his problem.

The Prof said:
but it aint working

maybe on paper, maybe in the abstract, maybe in harvard textbooks

but NOT in new york
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Well, the appropriate response to hate and fear is not capitulation, dot.
 
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