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Thread: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    So according to a new poll, 68% of Americans oppose this mosque. Apparently, two thirds of all Americans hold an entire religion and all their followers hostage for the deeds of a few terrorists.

    Anybody who ever wondered how something like the Holocaust could happen, or believed that it could only happen in Germany, or that it could never again happen today, should take a look at these poll numbers and take a deep breath before answering.

    Until then, let's read again the Protocols of the Elders of Islam.
    False dichotomy, red herring, hasty generalization, reductio ad-Hitlerum, argumentum ad misericordiam, and a straw man all in one short paragraph. Congragulations you make logic cry.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 08-16-10 at 07:04 PM.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    You see it wrong, then. Several of us showed where one can be against the placement of this mosque, yet not against Islam.
    Maybe you can explain it to me then. As I understood it, the Muslim group attempting to build it is not a radical one, and not supportive of islamist terrorism. So this hardly is a reason. Of course you can be against building any kind of religious buildings alltogether, based on the idea that religion is horrible in general. But I assume you have a different argument?
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    You are right, I don't think another Holocaust is near, this time one against Muslims. But that's not because the people are anymore tolerant or wise today than they were back then in Germany, or because people have learnt from history. These polls make this more than obvious.
    Well, again I think that opposing a Mosque being built near ground zero is miles away from people advocating something like that. People are selfish and don't understand that by celebrating the rights that the 1st amendment affords them means that others that they may not agree with are protected too.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    False dichotomy, hasty generalization, reductio ad-Hitlerum, argumentum ad misericordiam, and a straw man all in one short paragraph. Congragulations you make logic cry.
    It's interesting that you of all people would claim that logic is on the side of xenophobia and bigoted hatred. But then, not really surprising, considering this comes from you.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Maybe you can explain it to me then. As I understood it, the Muslim group attempting to build it is not a radical one, and not supportive of islamist terrorism. So this hardly is a reason. Of course you can be against building any kind of religious buildings alltogether, based on the idea that religion is horrible in general. But I assume you have a different argument?
    I simply think it is in poor taste. It would be like building a monument to the Bundeswehr next door to a death camp site in Germany. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with what the monument represents, as most of the men in the German army served honorably, but it is just something that probably should not be there.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Well, again I think that opposing a Mosque being built near ground zero is miles away from people advocating something like that. People are selfish and don't understand that by celebrating the rights that the 1st amendment affords them means that others that they may not agree with are protected too.
    The problem I see, though, is that the step from bigotry and stereotyping and according "mild" discrimination to outright murder is very, very small. People who are ready to protest against a Mosque based on nothing but a stereotyping, hateful image of Islam are only a tiny step away from lynch murder or even Holocaust, in case someone abuses this movement and directs it into the "right" channels.

    If there is one thing to learn from history, it's that.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    I simply think it is in poor taste. It would be like building a monument to the Bundeswehr next door to a death camp site in Germany. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with what the monument represents, as most of the men in the German army served honorably, but it is just something that probably should not be there.
    Oh come on. That was just a low hit. Not cool, Coronado.

    This has nothing to do with Nazi's or the holocaust, dont even dare compare the two. This is to do with Muslims having the right to build what they want and where they want. To believe otherwise is having a complete disregard for human rights and the fundamental beliefs of the founding fathers which have forumulated the very Western Democracy we all swear fealty to today.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    I simply think it is in poor taste. It would be like building a monument to the Bundeswehr next door to a death camp site in Germany. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with what the monument represents, as most of the men in the German army served honorably, but it is just something that probably should not be there.
    I agree with your Bundeswehr example. But I fail to see the analogy to a mosque near ground zero. Many Muslims died in the Twin Towers on 9/11 too, and Islam itself has nothing to do with al-Qaida in general. It would be like saying that building a Christian church near a former death camp would be tasteless, because most Nazi butcherers were members of Christian churches. The connection is so vague it simply doesn't make sense.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Oh come on. That was just a low hit. Not cool, Coronado.

    This has nothing to do with Nazi's or the holocaust, dont even dare compare the two. This is to do with Muslims having the right to build what they want and where they want. To believe otherwise is having a complete disregard for human rights and the fundamental beliefs of the founding fathers which have forumulated the very Western Democracy we all swear fealty to today.
    You'll note I did not say anything about the Nazis. I chose my words carefully. I don't believe all members of the Bundeswehr were Nazis or subscribed to Nazi ideals (Erwin Rommel comes to mind) any more than I believe that all Muslims are terrorists or sympathizers.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    As I see it, there are 68% of Americans who can't make a difference between terrorist criminal monsters and the religion of Islam. There is no point in debating that: Either you think the entire religion has to be held responsible for 9/11, or you have no problem with a mosque there. There is no grey area.
    Understood, now let's build a German Cultural center next to Aushwitz. Or an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica. If you think that would be completely inappropriate, offensive, and in bad taste then you must be a bigot in line with the Nazi's ready to goosestep people into the ovens.

    Furthermore; this is not some kumbaya singing little group, the head of this group blames the U.S. for 9-11, says OBL was made in the USA, wants a Sharia compliant US, and refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization.

    The clear intent of this Mosque is one of incitement, those claiming otherwise stating that it is really an attempt to reach out to the community are laughable. If that were the case and this was really an attempt to build bridges between Muslims and non-Muslims why didn't they set aside space for a synagogue and a church along with the mosque in this "cultural center"? Why did they decide to build a mosque rather than a memorial dedicated to the victims of 9-11? The latter would have actually engendered feelings of goodwill from American people towards Muslims; whereas, this mosque is causing nothing but resentment which ofcourse is its true motivation in the first place IE to give the proverbial **** you to the American people and to do a little victory jig on the site of their most successful attack.


    But the xenophobic, bigoted climate against an entire religion is definitely comparable.
    Bull****ing ****, you can not control your ethnicity you can control your ideology. The fact of the matter is that the only accepted view held within all five sects of mainstream Islam is that apostasy, adultery, homosexuality and/or premarital sex is that the penalties for these non-crimes are capital and/or corporal punishment.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 08-16-10 at 07:23 PM.

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