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Thread: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    No, he just did what a lot of people do when someone says something they're being criticized for -- "he has the right to say what he wants." Well, no ****. That was never the point. The point was what he said, not the right to say it.

    There was no particular reason Obama needed to weigh in at all, though. Especially after he (well, Gibbs) said the White House considered it a local matter.
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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Really quickly, since this is way off topic, but the Baptist church threw my mother out, publicly, and referenced doing so, and her being damned to hell, in front of my sister and I(aged 7 and 5). I have personal reasons for disliking the baptist church, and freely admit it is not an entirely rational emotion. This is also off the point I was trying to make.
    Fair enough. I didn't know and I apologize if I rubbed an old wound. It's enough for me to know that you realize, underneath it all, it is not a rational emotion (I would also add "or opinion," but I digress.)

    You never know until you walked a mile in someone's shoes. But just know this. Even though I am not a religious person, I was raised in a southern baptist environment and aside from their quirky belief's, they were the salt of the earth, most loving, caring people I can point to. I am certain they have their freaks too. As you seem to have encountered some. I think what those baptists did to you and your family deserves to be tarred and feathered. I can't imagine anyone from my past "baptist" background thinking anything otherwise, either.

    I had a Chinese Catholic Priest, at methodist Hospital, in Houston, TX, in 1975, try to feel me up once in a circle-electric hospital bed I was tethered to. That kinda skewed my view towards Catholics. So it's not like I don't understand. I just hope I don't go to hell for bitch-slapping a perverted priest.
    Last edited by Captain America; 08-15-10 at 04:53 PM.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    No, he just did what a lot of people do when someone says something they're being criticized for -- "he has the right to say what he wants." Well, no ****. That was never the point. The point was what he said, not the right to say it.

    There was no particular reason Obama needed to weigh in at all, though. Especially after he (well, Gibbs) said the White House considered it a local matter.
    This is no longer a local matter. It's become a national matter.

    Therefore I believe the President was correct in standing up for RIGHTS.

    Not nessecarily what is RIGHT.

    Personally I think it wasn't the brightest idea, but they do have the right. If we wish to start ignoring those rights, then so be it, but we better start changing our constitutions to include Anti-Islam clauses...

    Until then. I believe we must put up or shut up.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I conclude your view point is very apologetic to Islam and is a borderline "excuse".

    Using your view of things, everything can be blamed on everything - therefore, no group or individual is ever at fault or responsible and everyone can play "victim".
    No, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is we may have been fully justified in keeping those Muslim nations that hold such radically extreme views from the world policy table, but in doing so we should try to be as forward thinking as possible to see what may be the likely retaliatory consequence of our actions. As the 9/11 report said, "we lacked imagination to connect the dots" and all the clues were there long before the attack occured. Same has been proven correct where events leading to the attack on Pearl Harbor is concerned. But again, let's leave this for another debate thread, please.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    But the building of this Mosque so close to Ground Zero isn't just a local NYC or NY State issue. As I said in one of my previous posts, the decision to build it within such close proximity to Ground Zero affects many Americans on both an emotional and psychological level. As such, I understand why so many people are opposed to its construction at the specific location. However, I've also said that what's at stake goes so much deeper than our emotional, psychological or even political preferences or viewpoints. The deeper issue is "Who are we as Americans and will we adhere to our founding priciples or will we abandon those priciples just because they may make us uncomfortable from time to time?" That is what's truly at stake here. To that, I believe the President said the right thing here. He is upholding our American values by protecting and preserving basic human rights - freedom of religion, freedom of choice and upholding the rule of law at all levels. That to me is more important that the politics of the day. And it should be just as important for you, too.

    Let me put it to you this way...

    Had the President stood up and said it was wrong for this Mosque to be built, I believe the message Muslims around the world would have taken from this is "Americans ARE hypocrits! They truly don't believe in freedom of religion or democracy as they claim they do." And in taking such a stance, the President would have been sending a message to Muslim extremist that they were fully justified in attacking us not only on 9/11 but anywhere around the world. You have to remember, the guiding reason behind their hatred of America and Americans is U.S. Foreign Policy. Part of what guides said policy is how we abide by or subvert the very document that guides our fundamental priciples - the U.S. Constitution. Is this the message you want to send to the world? That America, for all of our talk on fairness and religious freedom is a smoke screen? That's it's just BS?

    THINK IT THROUGH, PEOPLE!!!! There's so much more to this issue than your own emotional or political point of view.
    I respect your opinion, and you certainly state it in an elegant, thoughtful manner, making some good points.

    That said, since I liken islam to a totalitarian cult akin to communism, the effort by the US in the '50s, while heavy handed at times, did successfully keep communism at bay from taking a stronger hold here than say, Italy or Greece. When you operate from that perspective, the US authorities are well within their oaths to protect the public at large from it, and the public at large is not violating the concepts of liberty and freedom of speech and religion by shunning it. Since it is a cult and not a religion, the authorities and public cannot be accused of hypocracy, except by those hiding behind the fig leaf of freedom while trying to subjugate it; i.e, muslim fascists.

    See here:

    Dorothy Rabinowitz: Liberal Piety and the Memory of 9/11 - WSJ.com

    "Dr. Zuhdi Jasser—devout Muslim, physician, former U.S. Navy lieutenant commander and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy—says there is every reason to investigate the center's funding under the circumstances. Of the mosque so near the site of the 9/11 attacks, he notes "It will certainly be seen as a victory for political Islam.""

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Oh, I completely agree that the right he was defending was an important one, my point is just that I don't think it was one that was really in dispute. I could be wrong, but my impression is that most everyone agrees that they have the right to build there, but most just object on grounds of sensitivity or appropriateness. If Obama didn't address that, then I don't know that his speech really did much.
    Good point...I agree.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This is no longer a local matter. It's become a national matter.
    That's not what he (well, Gibbs) said the day before. Or two days. Or whatever. Well after it had become a "national matter," in any case.

    It's not like the President has to get involved in every national matter, anyway. He ain't our papa.

    Therefore I believe the President was correct in standing up for RIGHTS.
    And as was pointed out, no one was ever challenging that right.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    I wonder if a religion developed here in the US, that practiced and preached rampant sexual behavior, psychedelic drug communions demonic evil and blood sacrifice, would the government step in?

    I still remember the hari krishnas. LOL!

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    I wonder if a religion developed here in the US, that practiced and preached rampant sexual behavior, psychedelic drug communions demonic evil and blood sacrifice, would the government step in?
    Anton LaVey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That's not what he said the day before.

    It's not like the President has to get involved in every national matter, anyway. He ain't our papa.
    But he must. This issue, could be the first step in either a right or wrong direction. If a precedence was reached, in which, they could stop this mosque from being built. It is possible, that, that precidence could reach to any city or town in America.

    What if towns simply decided:

    "HEY! We don't want them dirty Muslims here opening a mosque, see they stopped them in New York, so will we!"

    And as was pointed out, no one was ever challenging that right.
    But they are. Mob rule doesn't often turn out well.

    Again. Do I think it's a good idea... no. But if we begin subverting rights as we have already done out of fear... where do we stop it?

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