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Thread: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Muslims didn't have any excuse to attack us. Our foreign policy was in our best interest. That's the same as saying that it's our fault that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.
    But ultimate WE were responsible. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but WE did cut off Japan's access to natural resources, in this case, oil. WE backed them in a corner. WE were the leading discenting voice in imposing an oil embargo upon them. As such, the Japanesse Empire fought back. End result = the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    Do yourself a favor, go back and read WWII history then come back and maybe we can discuss this matter futher. But for the sake of this issue where U.S. policy may have foster Muslim extremist angst, I think WE repeated the same mistake. Again, I'm not saying that we weren't justified, but you have to see things in their proper historical content to gain a full understanding of what led to certain events.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    But ultimate WE were responsible. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but WE did cut off Japan's access to natural resources, in this case, oil. WE backed them in a corner. WE were the leading discenting voice in imposing an oil embargo upon them. As such, the Japanesse Empire fought back. End result = the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    Do yourself a favor, go back and read WWII history then come back and maybe we can discuss this matter futher. But for the sake of this issue where U.S. policy may have foster Muslim extremist angst, I think WE repeated the same mistake. Again, I'm not saying that we weren't justified, but you have to see things in their proper historical content to gain a full understanding of what led to certain events.
    Using this logic, Japan was actually responsible because they took the actions that forced us to take the actions that led them to bomb us.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    But ultimate WE were responsible. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but WE did cut off Japan's access to natural resources, in this case, oil. WE backed them in a corner. WE were the leading discenting voice in imposing an oil embargo upon them. As such, the Japanesse Empire fought back. End result = the attack on Pearl Harbor.
    Sure, in order to curtail their brutalization of China. If you think someone is "responsible" for something bad, you mean that it's their fault, that they did something wrong to bring it about. Was trying to stop Japan from brutalizing China an evil for which they rightly smited us? You seem to be saying it was.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Using this logic, Japan was actually responsible because they took the actions that forced us to take the actions that led them to bomb us.
    Lemme see. We are responsible for taking actions that were responsible for Japan having to bomb the **** out of Pearl Harbor, by which, made them responsible, for the supreme ass whuppin' we put on them afterwards.

    I can live with that.

    Go U.S.A.
    Last edited by Captain America; 08-15-10 at 04:34 PM.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The state of the economy, not some localized issue over the siting of a Mosque, will be the leading driver of November's elections.
    Economic Growth Prospects Dim in U.S. After Retail Sales, Trade Reports - Bloomberg

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    the lady's take (oh, my!):

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/us...v&ref=homepage

    "obama strongly backs islam center near 9-11 site"

    strongly, huh?

    thanks
    Last edited by The Prof; 08-15-10 at 04:45 PM.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    My understanding is that few have actually challenged the right of the mosque to build there, which is the only thing that Obama has claimed to have defended. I'm not sure how he's defending an American value if that value wasn't seriously questioned.

    The question of whether it's smart or sensitive to build there is an entirely different one, one which doesn't involve American values and one which wasn't addressed by Obama.
    I think he is supporting a strong American value here when he upholds the right for this Mosque to built even on the grounds of freedom of religion. In a twisted sort of way, we're just as fanatical about our right to practise whatever religion we see fit as Muslim extremist are to claim the right to Jihad. The only difference is in America we limit one's right to their religious views and/or practises to doing no harm one upon another, whereas, Islam from an extreme point of view allows the Muslim government (or governing body) to declare a holy war against pretty much anyone they believe does not support their religious views. Both are based on religious believe systems, but ours allows one the fundamental right to denounce (or bow out) of one religion for another, whereas, most governing Muslim bodies won't allow anyone to leave Islam. But both are values based on that nation's overall belief systems.

    Does that make sense?

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Using this logic, Japan was actually responsible because they took the actions that forced us to take the actions that led them to bomb us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Sure, in order to curtail their brutalization of China. If you think someone is "responsible" for something bad, you mean that it's their fault, that they did something wrong to bring it about. Was trying to stop Japan from brutalizing China an evil for which they rightly smited us? You seem to be saying it was.
    Good questions and great arguments, but like I said, we'll have to save this for another debate.

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Obama Reiterates His Stance on Mosque Near WTC site - Political Punch

    here, abc is essentially trying to pin him down, they see him as wiggling

    "obama’s comments today [saturday] have been seen by some as backing off his comments last night"

    hmm...

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    Re: President Obama comes out in support of Ground Zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I think he is supporting a strong American value here when he upholds the right for this Mosque to built even on the grounds of freedom of religion. In a twisted sort of way, we're just as fanatical about our right to practise whatever religion we see fit as Muslim extremist are to claim the right to Jihad. The only difference is in America we limit one's right to their religious views and/or practises to doing no harm one upon another, whereas, Islam from an extreme point of view allows the Muslim government (or governing body) to declare a holy war against pretty much anyone they believe does not support their religious views. Both are based on religious believe systems, but ours allows one the fundamental right to denounce (or bow out) of one religion for another, whereas, most governing Muslim bodies won't allow anyone to leave Islam. But both are values based on that nation's overall belief systems.

    Does that make sense?
    Oh, I completely agree that the right he was defending was an important one, my point is just that I don't think it was one that was really in dispute. I could be wrong, but my impression is that most everyone agrees that they have the right to build there, but most just object on grounds of sensitivity or appropriateness. If Obama didn't address that, then I don't know that his speech really did much.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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