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Thread: Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

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    re: Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    True. But all that has to happen is this:

    The government that used the weapons must be voted from power and possibly punished. The people shouldn't be.
    Since it's a parliamentary form there, it should be no problem. I'm quite sure there is a Turkish edition of Der Spiegel. Considering the rise of Turkey as a business power in the region, there must be quite a lot of trade between Germany and Turkey.

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    re: Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    First off the Israeli newspaper is highly biased and always has been. It is basically the mouth piece of the Israeli government. It has taken a German article that did not even make the front page, and twisted the words to make the accusation sound much more substantive than they are. There is a stark difference in tone and information between the original article and the one "transcribed" in the Israeli newspaper. Wonder why the key differences...

    For one, why does the Israeli article not mention that in the original article stated that Turkey have stated they have no chemical or bio weapons? Or that it was Turkish-Kurdish "human rights" groups that gave the information and pictures to German human rights groups, and selective politicians and journalists? Low standing politicians for the most part on the far left?

    Or why did the Israeli article not question the whole thing about a German forensic report.... the German forensic team have had no access to the bodies. The German article mentions that there is supposed a real autopsy report.

    Basically, it is another shot over the bow by the Israeli propaganda machine to discredit Turkey in their own going pissing contest over the flotilla raid.
    This is interesting. I hadn't had tme to take a peek at this. Sounds like you're on to something here.

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    re: Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    JP is biased and more than not it does the bidding of the Israeli government. It always has, and always will.
    According to you, I have zero reasons to take your position and believe your claims hold any truth to them at all.
    The JP is an independent newspaper and always was, you may claim it is biased but it is not controlled by the government.

    Not the original article. The original article is below.

    Kämpfe in Ostanatolien: Türkei soll Kurden mit Chemiewaffen getötet haben - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik

    And there is a mark difference. The whole first paragraph in the English version is different than the German on many levels and sets the tone of the whole article. And there is a mark difference in tone. For one the English version starts off with:

    This sets a tone of, "experts" have confirmed that Turkey uses chemical weapons.

    Now the original paragraph in German mentions nothing about German experts what so ever. Basically the whole first paragraph in English is totally different than the German version. The rest of the article is pretty much correctly translated but the tone is already set. Why Der Spiegel changed the wording I have no idea, just as I have no idea why JP used the translated English version and not the original version in their attack on Turkey.

    The original article first paragraph sounds like this.

    Now that is quite the difference to the English version.
    That's ridiculous Pete, the English version is translated by the Der Spiegel themselves, your claim here that the English version is biased against Turkey while the original version is not is absolutely bizarre.

    Plus JP omits stuff from the English version.. like Turkey denying even having chemical weapons.
    I don't think that's such a relevant information, it is well known that Turkey has never declared its Chemical weapons arsenal, that's what makes the use of such weapons even more wrong.

    As I said, your link is not the original article.
    Yes it is, it is the English version of the original article translated by the Der Spiegel.

    Yes he should, the link I provided.
    No, that's against forum's rules, articles are to be written in English, not in French, German, Italian, etc.

    But it does not matter, because like it or not it is an accusation that so far has not been backed up what so ever, and accusations coming from a Kurdish "human rights" group. Turkey has denied even having chemical weapons. Turkey has denied everything in matter of fact.
    The reason for this you can find in my earlier posts in this thread.
    I don't see the international community taking interest in opposing Turkey over anything, it's not like the majority of the world admits to the Armenian genocide, after all.

    This whole thread belongs in conspiracy theories more than in breaking news.
    If only due to your posts in it.
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    re: Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That's ridiculous Pete, the English version is translated by the Der Spiegel themselves, your claim here that the English version is biased against Turkey while the original version is not is absolutely bizarre.
    The English version is translated by Der Spiegel and it is word for word, EXCEPT the opening paragraph. Why is that? And you know as well as I do, that a tone of an article is set in the first paragraph.

    I don't think that's such a relevant information, it is well known that Turkey has never declared its Chemical weapons arsenal, that's what makes the use of such weapons even more wrong.
    It is a key piece of information that makes the JP piece biased. As for Turkey not declaring its chemical weapon arsenal.. yea because they dont have one. Not everyone keeps secret stashes of WMD you know..

    Yes it is, it is the English version of the original article translated by the Der Spiegel.
    I have pointed out the flaw, but you keep ignoring it.

    The reason for this you can find in my earlier posts in this thread.
    I don't see the international community taking interest in opposing Turkey over anything, it's not like the majority of the world admits to the Armenian genocide, after all.
    LOL talk about conspiracy theory. The rest of the world could give a damn about Turkey in general, so a genocide that happened almost 100 years ago will not register much interest. But thanks for proving my point about this being part of the continuing propaganda fight between Israel and Turkey..

    If only due to your posts in it.
    No because of the OP. This is no different than if someone took an article from an English version of say a Colombian news source, claiming that Arabic human rights sources have provided evidence of Israel using WMD against Palestinians. Would you believe them? I would not.
    PeteEU

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    re: Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

    Oh and speaking of board rules... title of thread does not match the article linked title.
    PeteEU

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    re: Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The English version is translated by Der Spiegel and it is word for word, EXCEPT the opening paragraph. Why is that? And you know as well as I do, that a tone of an article is set in the first paragraph.
    I still find it extremely absurd that you actually believe that a Der Spiegel article that is translated into English by Der Spiegel is biased while the same article in German is not.
    So do you believe that Der Spiegel are only biased when they translate their own articles?

    It is a key piece of information that makes the JP piece biased. As for Turkey not declaring its chemical weapon arsenal.. yea because they dont have one. Not everyone keeps secret stashes of WMD you know..
    You seem to have already decided that they don't have any arsenal.
    There's no reason to rule that out considering the Der Spiegel article and its presented evidence.

    I have pointed out the flaw, but you keep ignoring it.
    This flaw is only a flaw by absurd terms and standards, the Der Spiegel article is not biased at all, not in English and not in German.

    LOL talk about conspiracy theory. The rest of the world could give a damn about Turkey in general, so a genocide that happened almost 100 years ago will not register much interest. But thanks for proving my point about this being part of the continuing propaganda fight between Israel and Turkey..
    Only pointing out the international community's handling of the Turkish issues.

    No because of the OP. This is no different than if someone took an article from an English version of say a Colombian news source, claiming that Arabic human rights sources have provided evidence of Israel using WMD against Palestinians. Would you believe them? I would not.
    The Der Spiegel states quite clearly that:

    "German experts have confirmed the authenticity of photographs that purport to show PKK fighters killed by chemical weapons. The evidence puts increasing pressure on the Turkish government, which has long been suspected of using such weapons against Kurdish rebels. German politicians are demanding an investigation."

    That's a lot more than merely a Kurdish human rights group taking a jab at Turkey.
    But then again, you see only what you want to see.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    re: Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    So, Turkey is big bad evil, but when Saddam's use of WMD was shown... we were told not to care? Odd.
    We were told by who not to care? Der Spiegel? The JP? Governments? I remember Iraq being ostracised from the international community throughout the 90s and early 00s. Don't see any indication Turkey will receive that treatment...

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    re: Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The English version is translated by Der Spiegel and it is word for word, EXCEPT the opening paragraph. Why is that? And you know as well as I do, that a tone of an article is set in the first paragraph.
    That's irrelevant. Der Spiegel isn't generally viewed as a government mouthpiece for anyone and their article was written by them. That an English language newspaper should use the English version of another newspaper as a source is unsurprising. They left out the the governments denial, and that's poor reporting in any context, but most rational people don't get persuaded by government denials these days so I'm n not seeing that having much of an effect on readers.

    It is a key piece of information that makes the JP piece biased. As for Turkey not declaring its chemical weapon arsenal.. yea because they dont have one. Not everyone keeps secret stashes of WMD you know..
    I'm not sure why you would take it on faith that Turkey doesn't have chemical weapons because their government says they don't. That's incredibly naieve.


    The only thing I can agree on is that the timing is suspect and that this may be part of the ME propaganda war. Thing is, opposing interests to Turkey may have blocked stories like while they were cosy with Turkey and are now allowing it into the open. Propaganda does not only involve creating news but also controlling it. In any case investigation is warranted.

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    re: Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I still find it extremely absurd that you actually believe that a Der Spiegel article that is translated into English by Der Spiegel is biased while the same article in German is not.
    So do you believe that Der Spiegel are only biased when they translate their own articles?
    Then you explain why there is such a mark difference.... no wait you dont deal in facts. And I dont claim that the Der Spiegel article in English is biased, but that it is not the same. But then again the OP linked article is not the same as the English translation either.

    You seem to have already decided that they don't have any arsenal.
    I have never ever seen any evidence from anyone that they do have it.

    There's no reason to rule that out considering the Der Spiegel article and its presented evidence.
    What evidence? The article presents no evidence but only hear say. Pictures are out of context, location and time.

    This flaw is only a flaw by absurd terms and standards, the Der Spiegel article is not biased at all, not in English and not in German.
    Never said it was. I have stated that there was a marked difference in the first paragraph of the two, where as the rest is pretty much word for word translated. I have said that the OP article from the JP is biased. And that it is, not to mention inaccurate. IT calls Der Spiegel a newspaper.. it aint.

    Only pointing out the international community's handling of the Turkish issues.
    Which is no different than the international communities handling of issues in other countries. Now if there is evidence of wrong doing then watch the attitude change. But until that, who cares.

    The Der Spiegel states quite clearly that:

    "German experts have confirmed the authenticity of photographs that purport to show PKK fighters killed by chemical weapons. The evidence puts increasing pressure on the Turkish government, which has long been suspected of using such weapons against Kurdish rebels. German politicians are demanding an investigation."
    First off, in the German version of the article it is EXPERT, not EXPERTS. It is one expert, named Hans Bauman.

    Secondly the second part of the above paragraph does not exist in the German version. The closest you can get to

    which has long been suspected of using such weapons against Kurdish rebels
    is a comment from Gisela Penteker, a Turkish (most likely a Kurd) representative of International Physicians for the prevention of nuclear war. In the comment he floats the idea that Turkey is suspected of having chemical weapons.

    That's a lot more than merely a Kurdish human rights group taking a jab at Turkey.
    Not really. Everyone involved pretty much in exposing this scandal come from far left organisations and Kurdish organisations.

    But then again, you see only what you want to see.
    No you only want to see an evil bad Turkey using WMD.
    PeteEU

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    re: Turks hit PKK with chemical weapons'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    That's irrelevant. Der Spiegel isn't generally viewed as a government mouthpiece for anyone and their article was written by them. That an English language newspaper should use the English version of another newspaper as a source is unsurprising. They left out the the governments denial, and that's poor reporting in any context, but most rational people don't get persuaded by government denials these days so I'm n not seeing that having much of an effect on readers.
    The English version of Der Spiegel does not leave out the government denial. The only difference between the German and English version is the first paragraph for some reason.

    I'm not sure why you would take it on faith that Turkey doesn't have chemical weapons because their government says they don't. That's incredibly naieve.
    No I am stating a fact, a fact that should be in the JP article. Now weather I believe that fact is another matter I have not discussed. And for the record, it would not surprise me if they had chemical weapons.

    The only thing I can agree on is that the timing is suspect and that this may be part of the ME propaganda war. Thing is, opposing interests to Turkey may have blocked stories like while they were cosy with Turkey and are now allowing it into the open. Propaganda does not only involve creating news but also controlling it. In any case investigation is warranted.
    That may be, and yes an investigation is warranted but you know just as well as I do there wont be one. Turkey is like most other countries,... they dont open up their borders for investigations by outsiders.
    PeteEU

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