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Thread: Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

  1. #41
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    Re: Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    The only reason why they're a problem now is that they are a criminal underclass mostly incapable of getting good employment or education.
    They cannot acquire these things because they are somewhere they do not belong and somewhere that they have no right to be. These things are privileges that belong to the rightful inhabitants of this country.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    The previous wave of huddled masses did pretty well.
    The previous wave of huddled masses expected their children to join mainstream American society. The children of immigrants who follow this pattern are fully capable of receiving good educations and good employment opportunities and are statistically more successful than the children of natural born citizens. I have no complaint against immigrants who come to this country understanding that success in America depends upon adaptation to American cultural values.

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    Re: Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    I know that. Whether you or anyone else wants them is irrelevant to them. They want to come, and they will. By making it easier to come in legally, at least they have a chance of rising up instead of being a burden on taxpayers.
    Actually, we need to remove the economic incentive for illegal immigrants to come by cracking down harder on the businesses and individuals who hire them.

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    Re: Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    How exactly are you for the Arizona law but hate Arpaio and claim the governor who helped bring the law into the light is a racist without supporting information?
    Because Arpaio's tactics go far beyond the law. The law itself is a state stepping forward to enforce federal law and protect its economy, since the federal government will not. There is NOTHING illegal about the law. But Arpaio is a chronic rights violator who is being investigated by the federal and state authorities, and SHOULD BE.

    Jan Brewer has made the allegation that the only people coming here are drug dealers. That's a racist comment. I've worked with illegal mexican nationals, most only want to work very hard here to provide for their families better than they can in Mexico. However, that's a criminal act, and I don't support them doing it. I can understand that it's wrong to label all illegal nationals as drug dealers while still believing that illegal immigration is bad.

    Enforcing our existing laws = fine. Undermining constitutional rights = not fine. Racially labeling people as drug dealers = not fine.

    I am very wedded to our constitution and bill of rights. We have a right to enforce our borders. We are a nation of laws. One can be a constitutionalist and believe simultaneously that racism is wrong and that violating people's civil liberties is wrong. In fact, the seriousness with which I believe in our constitution and civil liberties makes the idea of Arpaio's conduct, as a legally appointed enforcer of laws, all the more appalling to me.

    See, I worked for a police agency. Enforcing the law and protecting civil liberties goes hand in hand. This is what cops do, daily.

    Why is this so hard for you?
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 08-13-10 at 10:11 AM.

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    Re: Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Actually, we need to remove the economic incentive for illegal immigrants to come by cracking down harder on the businesses and individuals who hire them.
    I'm siding with Milton Friedman on this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milton Friedman
    "If you have free immigration, in the way we had it before 1914, everybody benefited. The people who were here benefited. The people who came benefited. Because nobody would come unless he, or his family, thought he would do better here than he would elsewhere. And, the new immigrants provided additional resources, provided additional possibilities for the people already here. So everybody can mutually benefit."

    "But on the other hand, if you come under circumstances where each person is entitled to a pro-rata share of the pot, to take an extreme example, or even to a low level of the pie, than the effect of that situation is that free immigration, would mean a reduction of everybody to the same, uniform level. Of course, Iím exaggerating, it wouldnít go quite that far, but it would go in that direction. And it is that perception, that leads people to adopt what at first seems like inconsistent values."

    "Look, for example, at the obvious, immediate, practical example of illegal Mexican immigration. Now, that Mexican immigration, over the border, is a good thing. Itís a good thing for the illegal immigrants. Itís a good thing for the United States. Itís a good thing for the citizens of the country. But, itís only good so long as its illegal."
    Classically Liberal: What Milton Friedman really said about immigration.

    The only thing that gives me pause about them, is that they tend to vote for stupid political ideologies.
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    Re: Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

    The sad thing is that there is no real answer to this question. Arizona's Law, while it may be effective at helping round-up illegals and send them back, will still not end the mass exodus people are undergoing to the US. I think Arizona and all states should have the right to determine their immigration laws if the federal government is failing to act, which it is, but in the end we still face the problem of deterring illegals from pouring in. If people will endure the treatment described in the article to get into this country, then there is little laws like Arizona's will even do to stop them.

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    Re: Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    The sad thing is that there is no real answer to this question. Arizona's Law, while it may be effective at helping round-up illegals and send them back, will still not end the mass exodus people are undergoing to the US. I think Arizona and all states should have the right to determine their immigration laws if the federal government is failing to act, which it is, but in the end we still face the problem of deterring illegals from pouring in. If people will endure the treatment described in the article to get into this country, then there is little laws like Arizona's will even do to stop them.
    Restricting state benefits to new, poor immigrants may help make them more useful and wanted.
    I think that is a better start than straight up prohibition.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    óAdam Shepard

  7. #47
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    Re: Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Because Arpaio's tactics go far beyond the law. The law itself is a state stepping forward to enforce federal law and protect its economy, since the federal government will not. There is NOTHING illegal about the law. But Arpaio is a chronic rights violator who is being investigated by the federal and state authorities, and SHOULD BE.

    Jan Brewer has made the allegation that the only people coming here are drug dealers. That's a racist comment.
    Enforcing our existing laws = fine. Undermining constitutional rights = not fine. Racially labeling people as drug dealers = not fine.
    I can understand your opinion about Sheriff Joe. I cannot understand how the Gov's statment is racist. Ill advised, yes. Racist no.
    It is pretty well known AZ is a cooridor for drugs coming in from Mexico. I agree not all illegals are drug smugglers. IMO, the race card is played way to much on the issue of illegals in the US or Arizona. Many illegals are hard workers as stated. IMO, many of the illegals in the US today do not have the same motivation as those who came in legally in the 30's and 40's.
    "I can explain it to you but, I can't understand it for you"

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    Re: Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    I can understand your opinion about Sheriff Joe. I cannot understand how the Gov's statment is racist. Ill advised, yes. Racist no.
    It is pretty well known AZ is a cooridor for drugs coming in from Mexico. I agree not all illegals are drug smugglers. IMO, the race card is played way to much on the issue of illegals in the US or Arizona. Many illegals are hard workers as stated. IMO, many of the illegals in the US today do not have the same motivation as those who came in legally in the 30's and 40's.
    I worked with a police agency in the southwest. I'm very familiar with narcotrafficantes, most of the major drug distribution in our area was handled by the Sinaloan Cowboys, beginning back in the mid 1990s--and it continues today. Even now, I have a statue of Jesus Malverde in my office, and a necklace with his picture on it in my desk, both confiscated from Sinaloan narcotrafficantes.

    These folks did a ton of criminal activity in our area, and it certainly wasn't limited to street level drug sales. I saw them involved in crimes ranging from home invasion robbery to sex slavery. I personally worked with a 16 year old client who was one of their victims, her mother sold her to them for heroin when she was 14.

    Even knowing the extent of illegal mexican national involvement in drug trafficking in my city/state, I still was able to understand that the majority of undocumented workers in our area were there for WORK, not to sell drugs.

    Is the race card played too much on these issues? Absolutely. I saw our Chicano police chief and local Chicano judge come under major fire from local Hispanics for enforcing the laws on illegal immigration in partnership with what was then called INS.

    However, the fact that the race card is played from one side doesn't make racist allegations appropriate, particularly for a person holding a higher office, like governor.

    Re: Jan Brewer's comments, negatively generalizing across an entire group of people on the basis of race/ethnicity IS racism.

    p.s. I don't need you to "school" me on this stuff, Mike. I'm probably better informed on what the narcotrafficantes are up to than you are.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 08-13-10 at 10:58 AM.

  9. #49
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    Re: Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Restricting state benefits to new, poor immigrants may help make them more useful and wanted.
    I think that is a better start than straight up prohibition.
    So, you think that by providing illegal immigrants with benefits we will make them more desireable?

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    Re: Inside the Brutal World of America's Kidnapping Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    So, you think that by providing illegal immigrants with benefits we will make them more desireable?
    I think that he's saying that they would then be a greater net positive and less negative drain on the system. I'm just not sure how we'd, for instance, refuse to treat them at hospital emergency rooms. Or, refuse to enroll their kids in school. I can't see that happening, which means that working harder to cut off the incentive to come here is the only real option.

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