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Thread: Google and Verizon DID do a deal for new internet 'first class' superhighway Read mo

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    Re: Google and Verizon DID do a deal for new internet 'first class' superhighway Rea

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    See? Sometimes corporations really ARE evil. And sometimes, government really DOES have to step in to protect the interests of the public.

    Not always, but sometimes.
    The problem is the corporations were "Evil" by taking part and utilizing the horrendous situation the government ignorantly and stupidly set forth for them through their regulations that allowed for the quasi-monopolies to happen in the first place.

    Its one giant evil "**** the American Public" reach around being perpetrated by the two.

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    Re: Google and Verizon DID do a deal for new internet 'first class' superhighway Rea

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The problem is the corporations were "Evil" by taking part and utilizing the horrendous situation the government ignorantly and stupidly set forth for them through their regulations that allowed for the quasi-monopolies to happen in the first place.

    Its one giant evil "**** the American Public" reach around being perpetrated by the two.
    Well said. And, perhaps the feds will have to re-regulate the de-regulation.

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    Re: Google and Verizon DID do a deal for new internet 'first class' superhighway Rea

    Wow, this one caught more debate then I first expected...

    I do believe that this will create a dangerous precedent where these companies will turn the internet into an extension of cable tv where there's 500 channels but nothing on.

    Also, they will probably arrange it so the top search terms are what the 'premium' clients offer, and then several pages down the line you have the 'regular' internet customers, blogs, etc... that on those networks will be given low priority service... or be denied because of 'excess demand at the moment' or 'this website hasn't been secured as premium'... whatever the semantics are, I find that once the ISP's gain control over the content of the information flowing through the pipes, censorship or stifling of debates will become inevitable.

    This will be the beginning of the 'kinder gentler internet' with gatekeepers and identity checks when you sign on... then if you don't play by the rules then you will simply be relegated to the 'old' internet that will simply die off the radar.

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    Re: Google and Verizon DID do a deal for new internet 'first class' superhighway Rea

    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Google and Verizon DID do a deal for new internet 'first class' superhighway Rea

    Let me see if I correctly understand some things about this issue, or if I'm barking up the wrong tree here. I encourage anyone who is knowledgeable on this subject, to please respond so I can gain a better understanding of this issue.

    ...

    Weren't the initial reasons for proposing "net neutrality" laws, to ensure that ISP's wouldn't restrict access to legally operating websites based on their content (ie censorship), or based on a demand from an ISP for payment by the websites, to allow access to their customers?

    Wasn't the dispute that brought this issue again to the forefront, based on one or more cable internet service providers throttling, or limiting, the bandwidth of certain applications, specifically P2P (Bit Torrent) file sharing applications?

    If the statements above are correct, isn't the practice of throttling pretty much exclusive to ISP's that provide cable internet access? If so, isn't it done to insure quality of service for all their customers, because with cable connections, the available bandwidth has to be shared by all the customers they have in a particular area?

    It is my understanding, that with ISP's that offer DSL or dial up service, throttling isn't necessary because each customer has their own separate connection, which allocates the amount of bandwidth based on what the customer pays for.

    Now if everything I stated above is accurate, the next questions I have are:
    1) Have there been widespread reports that ISP's have throttled particular applications or limited the connection speeds to particular websites, that didn't threaten quality of service (ie require excessive amounts of bandwidth), or pose a potential danger to them or their customers?
    2) Have there been widespread reports that ISP's have blocked access to legally operated public websites, that posed no danger (malicious content) to them or their customers?
    Last edited by Grim17; 08-12-10 at 04:11 AM.

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    Re: Google and Verizon DID do a deal for new internet 'first class' superhighway Rea


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    Re: Google and Verizon DID do a deal for new internet 'first class' superhighway Rea

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    1) Have there been widespread reports that ISP's have throttled particular applications or limited the connection speeds to particular websites, that didn't threaten quality of service (ie require excessive amounts of bandwidth), or pose a potential danger to them or their customers?
    2) Have there been widespread reports that ISP's have blocked access to legally operated public websites, that posed no danger (malicious content) to them or their customers?
    Grim, here's two posts concerning this issue that I made some time ago that basically speak to this. One, showing some examples of statements and actions that are a precurser to what's being suggested. Two, what people think is generally the end game in regards to where this all would be going.

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    Re: Google and Verizon DID do a deal for new internet 'first class' superhighway Rea

    Actually, I trust history and the Telecomm's own words.

    Look historically at what has happened with other mediums that were more easily accessible by the public on their inception and then became regulated by the corporations running them...TV, Radio, and the print media. All of them became less and less a place where the ideas and voices of the average people could be shared and more and more what was pushed on us by the corporations that ran them. And I have nothing against that, those things pretty much functioned in that way from very early on.

    The internet, since its open inception, till this point, has grown because of the open access and easy ability to be used by ANYONE. You could have the most idiotic hobby known to man, make a website for it, throw it up, and there's a good chance because of the openness of the internet other people that share your strange idiotic hobby will actually find you and a community can form. It is an open forum of ideas unable to be mimicked in any form of communication save person to person. It is actually the best way for mass assembly of any kind by the populace due to the current size of the world and our country and the population spread within it.

    To give you some examples that are either already being tried, or have actually been stated to show their intent:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Washington Post
    William L. Smith, chief technology officer for Atlanta-based BellSouth Corp., told reporters and analysts that an Internet service provider such as his firm should be able, for example, to charge Yahoo Inc. for the opportunity to have its search site load faster than that of Google Inc.
    This is the first step to a tiered system that will effectively remove the greatest ability of the internet, its neutrality that allows everyone a voice. Instead, the major corporations will be given incredibly high speeds while things created independently will go for a crawl. Who needs Debate Politics...we can all go to Y! Politics, monitored by Yahoo, moderated by Yahoo, set with Yahoo's rules and things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verizon's Ivan Seidenberg told the Wall Street Journal
    We have to make sure they don't sit on our network and chew up our capacity. We need to pay for the pipe.
    Now, never mind that the Telecomm companies are getting LARGE subsidies from the government to create those "pipes", money coming from...oh that's right...WE THE PEOPLE. But this is very much showing what they're thinking. If you're not on their network, or not accessing a site on their network, then you will have to pay more to do whatever it is you're doing. When that happens, other companies do it as well. This conglomerates things where everything is compartmentalized on their own mini-networks or you're paying unbelievably stupid amounts of money.

    This is not people worried about some "Hypothetical" They are flat out telling us what it is they want to do.

    To give you some other examples already attempted:

    - In 2005, Canada's telephone giant Telus blocked customers from visiting a Web site sympathetic to the Telecommunications Workers Union during a contentious labor dispute.

    - In April, Time Warner's AOL blocked all emails that mentioned EchoDitto -- an advocacy campaign opposing the company's pay-to-send e-mail scheme.

    - Shaw, a major Canadian cable, internet, and telephone service company, intentionally downgrades the "quality and reliability" of competing Internet-phone services that their customers might choose -- driving customers to their own phone services not through better services, but by rigging the marketplace.

    They not only want us to pay to use their network, but they then want to tell us what we can and can not do with that service we're paying for. The path their taking us down will destroy the two-way nature of the internet.

    This isn't about "politicians". This isn't politicians pushing this movement, it is every day people coming together. This was something the politicians and Telecomms were trying to slide through quickly and quietly thinking no one would notice...and the people stood up and said "WTF, No!"

    The digital "super highway" is a great analogy for it. The "Pipes" they "own" are fundamental to the digital transportation of all information in our country, it is why they are given amazing amounts of TAX PAYER MONEY to maintain, upgrade, and keep those "pipes" going. People do not have a problem with them mandating a price for a certain over all speed....its done now, that's fine, it makes sense. But when it starts getting to where they begin to segment the internet, that's where the problem is.

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    Re: Google and Verizon DID do a deal for new internet 'first class' superhighway Rea

    Net Neutrality is absolutely necessary to keep the Internet as it is now and not where the Telecomm companies are trying to push it.

    Net Neutrality is one of the few issues that actually IS Bi-Partisan.

    Don't believe me?

    Ask yourself what in the world would ever get MoveOn.Org AND the NRA to actually agree?

    The one giant benefit to the Internet right now is its a completely open, user driven operation. Radio, Television, and even Print is primarily controlled by conglomerates with very little possibilities for the average person to put out anything on these mediums that will gain any traction. This is not the case with the internet...from personal websites, YouTube, MySpace, etc.

    What the Telecomm companies want to do is be able to established a "tiered" internet system. What a tiered system will do is make speeds accessed to certain websites and services be based on what services their hosted on. This gives rise to the ability to weed out certain web sites, push others, and removes the personal freedom found on the internet. I'll give you some metaphors for what this would do.

    Part of the problem with what the Telecomm's want is the fact that there is not many options for high speed networks. For the most part, you have at most one cable company to pick from and one phone company (Sometimes only one of either).

    Now, with that in mind, lets say Cable TV worked like they want this to work. But lets say particular channels are hosted by the cable comapnies themselves. So lets say COX communications "hosts" ESPN, ComCast "Hosts" Cartoon Network, and Adelphia "hosts" Comedy Central.

    Now lets say for the sake of this, amount of commercials = internet speed. So a fast internet would = no commercials, while 56k would be 5 minutes worth.

    If you happen to be a Cox Customer, you'd be getting ESPN at blazing fast speeds of no commercials. However lets say ComCast realizes that Adult Swim is a big pull for them, so they severely slow anyone not on their network down when watching it. So you as a Cox Customer would be getting 5 minute's of commercials being shoved in your programming. Then, lets say that Adelphia wants to charge anyone trying to watch the programming on their network that isn't part of Adelphia, so they charge your cable company for accessing their station and thus its passed on to you, paying a bit per minute to watch Comedy Central.

    Add on the fact that lets say Cox then decides that they want to push their OWN comedy channel, so they stop allowing access to Comedy Central so instead their new network gets the business. Thus they add in 5 minutes of commercials whenever you watch Comedy Central.

    This is effectively what can happen without Net Neutrality.

    It gives the Telecomms ability to regulate what sights can be seen, takes away the over all connectivity and freedom of the internet that has caused it to boom as it has, and begins to push it into a more corporate than open citizen enterprise.

    The internet as we know it will not exist in a decade or more time if Net Neutrality is done away with and the Telecomm's hopes come to fruition. This is the kind of government regulation that IS supposed to happen, because the Telecomm's generally have a monopoly in the areas they they serve and have been getting government funding to expand their high speed networks for ages.

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    Re: Google and Verizon DID do a deal for new internet 'first class' superhighway Rea

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Grim, here's two posts concerning this issue that I made some time ago that basically speak to this. One, showing some examples of statements and actions that are a precurser to what's being suggested. Two, what people think is generally the end game in regards to where this all would be going.
    Where?

    Even though you didn't answer most of my questions directly, you did take the time to post some very useful information. Your effort is appreciated.... Thanks.

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